89 GSXR1100 1127cc to 1216cc JE Kit, general engine building questions...

[SBK1000]

This is my first attempt to engine building, I want to do it right, with a limited budget... So it is Ok if it takes time. I plan to ride the bike a little hard for track days...

1.- Will the stock rods be strong enough or should I look into stronger rods?

2.- What are the suggested services I should consider doing to the head? ...Porting and a valve job? ...I hear the 89 GSXR1100 had the best stock cams. Am I overlooking or missing anything for the head services?

3.- Also, if I am going with 1216 pistons, should I consider also using a dot 750 head?

4.- Any other things I should look into while the motor is off the bike?

Thanks for your input. Luis

[Gixer1460]

Depends what 'limited budget' is could be £500 or £5000 and what you want as an end result?

For most applications, std. rods - IF NOT OVER REV'D - will be fine to 200 odd hp. Oil flow problems are generally what kills rods - keep it flowing, with pressure and cool it well!

Find someone respected for these heads to do the work - the head work must respect what else is being done - bore, cams, carbs, exhaust etc. If its more a road bike than track tool then try and keep full length valve guides - shorter guides good for flow but poor longevity. Don't get ports carved out bigger, just smooth them with improved short turn flow, 30/26 valves will help but added cost, stg 1 or 2 cams will add to the party sometimes more than headwork! 

I'd go with JE or Wosner pistons - Wiseco tend to use up rings quickly IMO. Do not use a DOT head with kit pistons as CR will be through the roof! Busa pistons do not make good NA pistons although could work with a DOT head. The 'M' pattern head is actually the best for flow but cam choices are limited - the shim spitting is only a problem on high rpm motors. My turbo motor still has shims - i'm not worried!

[Dezza]

2 hours ago, SBK1000 said:

This is my first attempt to engine building, I want to do it right, with a limited budget... So it is Ok if it takes time. I plan to ride the bike a little hard for track days...

1.- Will the stock rods be strong enough or should I look into stronger rods?

2.- What are the suggested services I should consider doing to the head? ...Porting and a valve job? ...I hear the 89 GSXR1100 had the best stock cams. Am I overlooking or missing anything for the head services?

3.- Also, if I am going with 1216 pistons, should I consider also using a dot 750 head?

4.- Any other things I should look into while the motor is off the bike?

Thanks for your input. Luis

Do you have a 750 DOT head that you may not need? If so I would be interested in buying it if it comes complete.

[Oilyspanner]

G1460 has answered pretty much everything - you'll need to budget for new oil seals for the head and oil drain tubes at the front of the block - it's easy to put it all back together and see oil happily p-issing out on starting !  

Without some flowing work the larger engine will produce it's power lower down the rev range - big bores effectively reduce the tuned state of an engine, if everything else remains the same - in our engines they will produce a lot more torque. If you have the inlets slightly reshaped and the exhaust ports polished, you can gain 5 -10 hp by making the head more efficient - the power will climb on from the power curve of just a big bore.

The only reason 1100 Ks were more powerful than the OC models after it was the silencers, the L,M and N all had an extra baffle plate in them that reduced max power for the 125 hp limit of the time (they normally made about 117hp with these silencers), cocked up the power curve lower down too !

[jonny1bump]

Good Head work, valves will give biggest gain for you buck as they day.

Je pistons I have found to be better quality to Wiseco. I just ordered some new rings they all made by same company.

Stock rods are better then you would think.

Everything being said above depends how far you want to go.

Its quite easy to get to 150 even with stock carbs jetted and airbox. After this starts getting costly and time consuming.

Edited August 26, 2017 by jonny1bump

[SBK1000]

6 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Depends what 'limited budget' is could be £500 or £5000 and what you want as an end result?

For most applications, std. rods - IF NOT OVER REV'D - will be fine to 200 odd hp. Oil flow problems are generally what kills rods - keep it flowing, with pressure and cool it well!

Find someone respected for these heads to do the work - the head work must respect what else is being done - bore, cams, carbs, exhaust etc. If its more a road bike than track tool then try and keep full length valve guides - shorter guides good for flow but poor longevity. Don't get ports carved out bigger, just smooth them with improved short turn flow, 30/26 valves will help but added cost, stg 1 or 2 cams will add to the party sometimes more than headwork! 

I'd go with JE or Wosner pistons - Wiseco tend to use up rings quickly IMO. Do not use a DOT head with kit pistons as CR will be through the roof! Busa pistons do not make good NA pistons although could work with a DOT head. The 'M' pattern head is actually the best for flow but cam choices are limited - the shim spitting is only a problem on high rpm motors. My turbo motor still has shims - i'm not worried!

6

I got my 89 as a 22K mile non-running bike that sat for many years. The engine turned over with a charged battery. A compression test was performed and there was low compression. A leak down test was performed and it the intake valves seems to be the problem.

Limited budget to me means I do not have all the money up front... I will be buying parts as I can. I am NOT looking to build a Race Winning engine. Having said that the head is off. I figure may as well refresh the whole top end with good parts to get better performance while maintaining some reliability. A friend of mine built a 2mm over SV650... And the engine grenade from rod failure after 30 minutes of use on his second session of Track Day. That was my concern for getting better and expensive rods.  

I will look into the cost of 30mm / 26 mm valves. Thanks. Also, I have a set of BST38SS carburetors, and I was going to use 2004 GSXR1000 titanium headers with a Racefit slip on.  

[SBK1000]

6 hours ago, Dezza said:

Do you have a 750 DOT head that you may not need? If so I would be interested in buying it if it comes complete.

I have found some available... Do not own one yet.

 

[boilerdude]

The dot head is a nice trick for stock pistoned bandits. Raises the compression by a whole thingy. If you're already installing pistons (which are presumably right around 12:1 on their own) also adding a dot head would put you at 13:1 or more. At which point you need race fuel only.

[jonny1bump]

You may be surprised what compression you can run with 97 with the correct set up, but quite correct over 13 stock fuel is problematic.

[FJD]

On 26.8.2017 at 5:33 PM, SBK1000 said:

I got my 89 as a 22K mile non-running bike that sat for many years. The engine turned over with a charged battery. A compression test was performed and there was low compression. A leak down test was performed and it the intake valves seems to be the problem.

Well - i would suggest getting it running, and the check valve clearances again, as it´s likely rust on the valve seats that prevent the valves from sealing correct.

Have seen that many times  - so always get the engine running first to clear of rusty valve seats (which will show close valve clearances), and THEN adjust tappets, not vice versa

[nlovien]

a bit of an "out there" tuning suggestion but one that deserves a lot more merit these days now you can buy the bits at a reasonable cost-  take a leaf out of the FInj. route and plan to fit a 3D ignition system - couple this with a wide band lambda and gauge for carb tuning

crank position sensor / cam position sensor / rpm and throttle position sensor = develop and ignition map that add's throttle position ( engine load) to the typical rpm only systems - probably not find anymore top end HP but you can find a bunch more mid range torque and you can restrict negative tuning for the likes of knock to the specific load condition

ignitech provide a decently priced system http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm

[markfoggy]

Hmmm, so TPS for Mickey T's?

Anybody got any solutions? 

Also I'm never very clear what Ignition trigger plate that you could use for an Ignitech, do they actually make one? 

I really like the ElectronikSasche unit, cause it has a LED on it to find TDC. It is expensive though for a non-programmable box and is not listed for Oil Boilers, but I believe that it will work if you get a GS kit.

https://elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/product_info.php?info=p211_digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-suzuki-gs1000.html

CPS is the perfect solution, but digging a hole in a cam and fitting a magnet with Epoxy would make me too paranoid.

[MeanBean49]

3 hours ago, markfoggy said:

Hmmm, so TPS for Mickey T's?

Anybody got any solutions? 

Also I'm never very clear what Ignition trigger plate that you could use for an Ignitech, do they actually make one? 

I really like the ElectronikSasche unit, cause it has a LED on it to find TDC. It is expensive though for a non-programmable box and is not listed for Oil Boilers, but I believe that it will work if you get a GS kit.

https://elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/product_info.php?info=p211_digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-suzuki-gs1000.html

CPS is the perfect solution, but digging a hole in a cam and fitting a magnet with Epoxy would make me too paranoid.

Ignitech uses standard ignition pickup and rotor, or any aftermarket one you have.

Use a set of bandit 1200 carbs with TPS and you can programe a full 3D ignition map using rpm and tps to control ignition advance/retard.

It can also power 2 outputs that can switch by whatever parameter you want them to.

Really good bits of kit

Edited August 28, 2017 by MeanBean49

[Captain Chaos]

33 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said:

Really good bits of kut

had to be quoted for all the Dutchies on here 

[markfoggy]

:LOL:

 

[nlovien]

15 hours ago, markfoggy said:

 

CPS is the perfect solution, but digging a hole in a cam and fitting a magnet with Epoxy would make me too paranoid.

should have said "crank or cam" position sensor - apologise, had F.I. head on,

[SBK1000]

16 hours ago, FJD said:

Well - i would suggest getting it running, and the check valve clearances again, as it´s likely rust on the valve seats that prevent the valves from sealing correct.

Have seen that many times  - so always get the engine running first to clear of rusty valve seats (which will show close valve clearances), and THEN adjust tappets, not vice versa

1

Right now, the engine is off the bike and the head is off the engine...

I do not see a problem with the pistons, other than quite a bit carbon deposits, or the cylinders, they still have a good honing pattern. I figure since the heads are off I may as well bump up the cc and compression...

And, I was thinking of refreshing up the head. Doing what I can to improve flow.