1100G scavenge pump using OEM oil pump?

[TiZiK]

Good day gents.  As I near the (somewhat) completion, I'm thinking ahead about scavenge pumps if my drain isn't suffice. 

I know there's electronic ones but I remember seeing a pic of someone using the stock pump. All I could gather was there was a pipe going through the case and looked to be connected to the OEM pump. See attached pic

Anyone see or know of this and can shed some Insight?

I'd like to explore this option if it's viable.

Turbo is a Holset HY 35. I have a very large drain but think the line angle might give issues. Not fully running yet so don't know. Just thinking\planning ahead

[Captain Chaos]

What if the oil pump draws air from the turbo instead of oil?

[Maggotbreath]

Facet electric or crank driven Emtes style pump would be better.  What your looking at is very old, probably early 90s, needs reed valve behind the screen to work. imho, nfg and dated.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Maggotbreath
spelig

[TiZiK]

On 1/21/2021 at 12:28 AM, Captain Chaos said:

What if the oil pump draws air from the turbo instead of oil?

Good point!  I just saw this picture and was wondering about it and if it was feasible.

 

On 1/21/2021 at 2:02 AM, Maggotbreath said:

Facet electric or crank driven Emtes style pump would be better.  What your looking at is very old, probably early 90s, needs reed valve behind the screen to work. imho, nfg and dated.

I do have a Facet Electric pump on hand already.  Guess Ill get the appropriate fittings to plumb it in if needed.  

 

Thanks chaps.

[Fredrik_Steen]

How big is "very large drain"

Look at the hole in the turbo, are you matching that?

Turbo leaks oil after rebuild. Why? - YouTube

 

Oil restrictor on the feed line you can look into

[Bobby]

I have recently bought a crank driven pump from a place called top bike in Poland, looks decent but haven't used it yet to test it  

[Duckndive]

40 minutes ago, Bobby said:

I have recently bought a crank driven pump from a place called top bike in Poland, looks decent but haven't used it yet to test it  

His stuff looks good 

[TiZiK]

On 22/01/2021 at 3:17 PM, Fredrik_Steen said:

How big is "very large drain"

Look at the hole in the turbo, are you matching that?

Turbo leaks oil after rebuild. Why? - YouTube

 

Oil restrictor on the feed line you can look into

I've watched a few of his videos but especially this one. 

I'm using AN -12 line. It's really close to the 19mm drain size on the Holset.  Made my own mounting flange and port matched it the chra.

[Maggotbreath]

13 hours ago, Bobby said:

I have recently bought a crank driven pump from a place called top bike in Poland, looks decent but haven't used it yet to test it  

Can you post up a pic or two of your new pump?

[Bobby]

14 hours ago, Maggotbreath said:

Can you post up a pic or two of your new pump?

 

[clivegto]

Would like one of those, this is my one also from Poland. has one of these pit bike oil pumps inside that only cost £10.

Edited January 25, 2021 by clivegto

[MeanBean49]

What Ive never understood with these pumps is how you get around the fact they are constantly changing the volume they are scavenging. Turbo is getting a relatively steady flow of oil through it and needs a pretty constant rate of scavenge. 

These vary massively with rpm, way I see it thats not going to work properly either at lower rpms or higher, either not scavenging fast enough or too much and sucking turbo dry.

Realise loads of people run them but personally I will stick with a simple electric facet pump

[clivegto]

3 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said:

What Ive never understood with these pumps is how you get around the fact they are constantly changing the volume they are scavenging. Turbo is getting a relatively steady flow of oil through it and needs a pretty constant rate of scavenge. 

These vary massively with rpm, way I see it thats not going to work properly either at lower rpms or higher, either not scavenging fast enough or too much and sucking turbo dry.

Realise loads of people run them but personally I will stick with a simple electric facet pump

Not run my one yet but isn't that the idea of the catch tank to overcome that. But then the little pump could run dry, have read its a good idea to run the little pump with a brass bearing for this reason. 

[Gixer1460]

31 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said:

What Ive never understood with these pumps is how you get around the fact they are constantly changing the volume they are scavenging. Turbo is getting a relatively steady flow of oil through it and needs a pretty constant rate of scavenge. 

These vary massively with rpm, way I see it thats not going to work properly either at lower rpms or higher, either not scavenging fast enough or too much and sucking turbo dry.

Realise loads of people run them but personally I will stick with a simple electric facet pump

Won't an electric pump suffer equally for scavenging to fast as it is running 'flat out' all the time which isn't what is needed at idle for example. I have no preference although prefer the mechanical 'always running' pump over an electrical device, having other electrical pumps die when used in less severe situations.

[MeanBean49]

1 hour ago, Gixer1460 said:

Won't an electric pump suffer equally for scavenging to fast as it is running 'flat out' all the time which isn't what is needed at idle for example. I have no preference although prefer the mechanical 'always running' pump over an electrical device, having other electrical pumps die when used in less severe situations.

Electric pump doesnt have flat out, just on or off, exactly what its designed to do.

Engine rpm is largely irrelevant, turbo gets pretty much the same oil flow through it all the time, just a case of matching your oil in to what the pump is taking away. Imo thats easier to do when your not having to deal with constantly varying pump speeds

[Gixer1460]

17 hours ago, MeanBean49 said:

Electric pump doesnt have flat out, just on or off, exactly what its designed to do.

Engine rpm is largely irrelevant, turbo gets pretty much the same oil flow through it all the time, just a case of matching your oil in to what the pump is taking away. Imo thats easier to do when your not having to deal with constantly varying pump speeds

So you are constantly turning it on / off whilst riding?  And i've never come across a speed regulated pump - Facet or similar - without outside control hence my 'flat out comment - they pump at one speed, all or nothing!

[MeanBean49]

18 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

So you are constantly turning it on / off whilst riding?  And i've never come across a speed regulated pump - Facet or similar - without outside control hence my 'flat out comment - they pump at one speed, all or nothing!

Why would I be constantly turning it off and on, i have a pretty constant feed to my turbo with a matched constant scavenge.

Electric pump loke I use only have one speed, ON, thats its design, and its,warranted to operate in its on condition, your implying "flat out" running isxin some way goimg to affect its reliability, it doesnt, its just working as intended. Much like electric pumps used in billions of applications the world over

[Fredrik_Steen]

You need a catch can with a ventilation hose on top.

I did this test last night. Retur oil i a coke bottle and the scavange feed. Then you will know if you scavange enough oil. Anyone that can guess what the third hose are? =)

Retur oil Turbo - YouTube

(2500rpm on the movie)

I´m running a very small ristriktor on my ball bearing turbo. You will see a increase on flow when you rev the engine.

On a journal turbo and no ristriktor you will see a LOT of flow. ( I think it can hurt the engine when you take so mutch oil frome the main oil gallery)

[Leblowski]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:21 AM, TiZiK said:

Good day gents.  As I near the (somewhat) completion, I'm thinking ahead about scavenge pumps if my drain isn't suffice. 

I know there's electronic ones but I remember seeing a pic of someone using the stock pump. All I could gather was there was a pipe going through the case and looked to be connected to the OEM pump. See attached pic

Anyone see or know of this and can shed some Insight?

I'd like to explore this option if it's viable.

Turbo is a Holset HY 35. I have a very large drain but think the line angle might give issues. Not fully running yet so don't know. Just thinking\planning ahead

I used a set up like this on my first turbo build. You blok the oilintake with a piece of feathersteel. When the oilpump sucks it wil create a vacuüm above wich will suck the oil from your turbo. 

You will need a flapvalve one way to prevent oil from draining back.

The thickness of the Steel is very delicate you need thick enough to create vacuüm and not to thick so your engine doesnt get enough oil.

I used the example from Joe Hailes book.

It worked for me very very good but i wouldnt recomend it cause its a Bitch to get it working properly.

So yes just buy a crankdriven scavengepump i used one on other builds much easier and safe.

 

[pokepa]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:21 AM, TiZiK said:

Good day gents.  As I near the (somewhat) completion, I'm thinking ahead about scavenge pumps if my drain isn't suffice. 

I know there's electronic ones but I remember seeing a pic of someone using the stock pump. All I could gather was there was a pipe going through the case and looked to be connected to the OEM pump. See attached pic

Anyone see or know of this and can shed some Insight?

I'd like to explore this option if it's viable.

Turbo is a Holset HY 35. I have a very large drain but think the line angle might give issues. Not fully running yet so don't know. Just thinking\planning ahead

This is my bike and I have never had a problem with this setup. I even recently revived it after a long seven year sit.

 

 

[pokepa]

This is my bike in the picture and I have never had a problem with this setup. It has worked without problems for many years. The fact that it can draw air is speculation from people who ran away from physics classes. I even recently revived it after a long seven-year stand.

 

[peter1127]

I used a reed valve setup a long time ago. Difficult to get right. I had the problem that when really hot, it still smoked. And then making the reed slightly stronger the oil light came on at idle. When I tried to get this just right, I had both problems. Wouldnt recommend it, especially when other options are available like the topbike and facet that dont require messing with the engine oil system.

I like the topbike crank pump: installed with a catchtank and breather and  works fine. Flow doesnt match, hence the vented catch tank.   

[Reinhoud]

1100G, does it have a crankshaft on roller bearings?

[Gixer1460]

54 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

1100G, does it have a crankshaft on roller bearings?

The GSX1100G was a derivative of the GSXR range of engines - all with plain shell bearings and massively over spec'd oil pumps.

[Reinhoud]

28 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

The GSX1100G was a derivative of the GSXR range of engines - all with plain shell bearings and massively over spec'd oil pumps.

Aha. I know some GSX have roller bearings, I know some have plain bearings, not too sure when it went from roller to plain..

With plain bearings it should be possible to scavenge from the oil pump pick up. Should be on the web...