Bandit 1200 Turbo EFI can't get out of it's own way

[Forced2]

Use a chassie or battery ground and test to be sure. Definitely looks like you aren't charging. Does the voltmeter show a charge when checked at the battery? Check voltage while everything is off. Then recheck with the engine running. Check both at the battery. If you see no increase or even a decrease in voltage while running that alternator is shot. 

[Fredrik_Steen]

Fit a wheel to the crankshaft. Use a TDC tool. You need to rev it proper too see that the timing do what you want

 

M14 1,25  buy a long car wheel bolt and a peace of tube. make a hole in a spare cover

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Fredrik_Steen

[rider384]

8 hours ago, Fredrik_Steen said:

Fit a wheel to the crankshaft. Use a TDC tool. You need to rev it proper too see that the timing do what you want

 

M14 1,25  buy a long car wheel bolt and a peace of tube. make a hole in a spare cover

 

 

Good idea with the spare cover, thank you. Already found TDC and marked it with an m14x1.25 bolt, that's how I found I was so far off. Once I have the alternator replaced I'll double check timing at higher RPM. If by fit a wheel to the crank you mean a trigger wheel, I'm already running a 24-2. 

On 10/15/2020 at 2:30 PM, Forced2 said:

Use a chassie or battery ground and test to be sure. Definitely looks like you aren't charging. Does the voltmeter show a charge when checked at the battery? Check voltage while everything is off. Then recheck with the engine running. Check both at the battery. If you see no increase or even a decrease in voltage while running that alternator is shot. 

Battery voltage actually dropped significantly when it was running. Definitely the alternator. 

[Askamaskinservice]

3 hours ago, rider384 said:

If by fit a wheel to the crank you mean a trigger wheel

Degreewheel.

[Fredrik_Steen]

9 hours ago, rider384 said:

Good idea with the spare cover, thank you. Already found TDC and marked it with an m14x1.25 bolt, that's how I found I was so far off. Once I have the alternator replaced I'll double check timing at higher RPM. If by fit a wheel to the crank you mean a trigger wheel, I'm already running a 24-2. 

You can not find true tdc with a m14 bolt. Look at this clip. Setup a degree wheel and do your timing =)

 

 

[rider384]

Updates:

Put a new (used) alternator in. Battery reading 12.5v with everything off, 11.9 with all accessories on, and 12.4 with the bike running at idle to low RPM. Can anyone confirm if that seems right? It seems low to me. Wondering if the alternator is better than the old one but still junk. I've tested the alternator wiring, there's negligible resistance between the alternator and the battery. 

Bike ran ok earlier today; I got higher in the rev range and more throttle before it dropped cylinders. Shut it down for a couple hours, accidentally left one of the gauges on so the battery drained a bit, checked it and it was still at 12.5v, but it ran as poorly as it did before, maybe even worse. 

Quick summary of what I've tested tonight:

1.  Battery voltage off/accessories on/running: 12.5v, 11.9v, 12.4v, respectively
2.  Voltage drop between coils and battery. No drop at all
3.  Checked for fuel line restrictions and fuel pressure - proper set pressure (50psi) and no kinks in line
4.  All cylinders firing, though cylinder 3 takes a while to fire after startup (5ish seconds of dead time until it starts firing)

Plan going forward, in order, each subsequent one being done only if the previous one doesn't work:

1. Alternator charging circuit output mod
2. New battery
3. New alternator again
4. Burn the bike to the ground

Anyone have any thoughts? I have a suspicion that the battery can't handle the power output of running all the accessories that I've added, and/or the second alternator I just put in is junk, or that something is wrong with the charging circuit itself, but if I do all of those and it's still not running right I really have no idea where to look. 

[Gixer1460]

Alt. output seems low even at idle, should ideally be close to 13v rising to 14.5 +/- 0.2v @ 5000 rpm. A Bandit alt. has the best output in the range so should cope with the extra loads providing you don't deep cycle the battery too often.

Do you NEED 50psi fuel pressure? It would be better to start with lower FP, 2.5-3.0 bar, gives pump an easier time, less amps draw and easier on-boost not to run out of flow due to static + boost pressure = reduced flow? Just a thought!

The alt. mod. will only work if the alt. is capable of 'over charging' - that is the point of it! You currently don't know if it is or not. Also the battery MUST be good - putting charge into a dying battery is folly - like feeding a prisoner who's just had the lethal injection!

[wombat258]

Those alternators will only handle a maximum of 40 amps output, so it will pay for you to work out how much you are trying to pull out of the system with all your accessories running. A clamp style current meter is handy to work that out. The alternators do not do well at idle, and you can overload the regulator quickly if it is trying to excite the rotor to maximum capacity at low engine speeds.

[Gixer1460]

8 minutes ago, wombat258 said:

Those alternators will only handle a maximum of 40 amps output, so it will pay for you to work out how much you are trying to pull out of the system with all your accessories running. A clamp style current meter is handy to work that out. The alternators do not do well at idle, and you can overload the regulator quickly if it is trying to excite the rotor to maximum capacity at low engine speeds.

True but there should only be ECU, ignition and fuel pump running presently so maybe 1A + 5A + 8A = 14A which is well within the Alt. capacity (above idle) I believe the GSF Alt. is 350+ watts (28A) output @ 5000 rpm.

[Forced2]

+1 on what gixer1460 has stated. If I could add anything, It would be to eliminate any unnecessary electronics, lights, gauges, etc  for troubleshooting purposes to get the most out of the charging system.

[rider384]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm going to check the amp draw at idle and see if my accessories are pulling too much power. If so, I'll lower my base fuel pressure and see what else I can trim off. 

I think I'll remove the stock battery and hook up a known good car battery to it and check the voltage when running. I think Gixer1460 said is spot on - feeding a bad battery voltage is like feeding a prisoner after they've had a lethal injection. Wondering if the battery is bad enough that it can't take a real charge - even when I hook it up to my charger and give it full charge, it drops down to 12.5v after being disconnected for about a minute. At least I can potentially knock the battery off my list of suspects that way. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by rider384
Autocorrect

[wombat258]

11 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

True but there should only be ECU, ignition and fuel pump running presently so maybe 1A + 5A + 8A = 14A which is well within the Alt. capacity (above idle) I believe the GSF Alt. is 350+ watts (28A) output @ 5000 rpm.

Plus wide band and charging battery 14A + 8A + 1A =23A. Pushing the 28A alternator to the limit. Had same problems with 1100W alternator at 21A draw. Worked OK at full noise, but extended idling or low rpm work and the regulator shut down due to heat overload. The Mosfet upgrade is less prone to heat buildup. I went for a Triumph alternator - 45 amps capacity, and charges strong at idle.

[no class]

12 minutes ago, wombat258 said:

I went for a Triumph alternator - 45 amps capacity, and charges strong at idle.

you have a link to the mods ? thnx

[wombat258]

I had to make an adaptor because the Daytona alternator is completely different to the W alternator. I came across a website that did the conversion for Bandit requiring only some offset drilling of the mounting holes . . . will see if I can track it down tonight (Oz time). I also suggest you log the running of the engine with Tunerstudio to see if you can get a better idea of what causes the engine to cut at high rpm. I found that the default injector voltage pulse correction is way too high (0.2?) and I ended up with a pulse correction of around 0.12. Your table may also be way out . . . AFR trends should help you work out which way to go. Regulator pressure should be 45psi. What regulator are you running (hopefully 1:1 pressure compensated).

[rider384]

Fully charged the battery with my charger and re-tested everything today.

• Full charge - 13.0v
• Accessories on - 12.0v
• Bike idling - 12.5v

After a very short ride

• Battery - 12.5v
• Accessories on - 11.8v
• Idling - 12.2v

Took some datalogs as well. I can see that the alternator is doing something, but not very much. It always seems to be trailing behind the battery voltage. IE on a fully charged battery, it will put out 13v, but the system voltage doesn't stay there for long, just keeps getting less and less. Final datalog tonight showed the system voltage dipping down into the 11.9v range while running. 

I think the battery is shot and possibly the alternator I just put in as well. I'm going to throw a lithium battery at it and see what happens. If that doesn't work, it's another new alternator. If that still doesn't work, I'm going to light the bike on fire in my driveway. Built this thing 6 months ago and I haven't gotten a solid pull out of it yet, getting towards the end of my patience with it. 

[Nickel]

Do you have wired up the alternator correctly?

From my point of view the alternator does not deliver any charging voltage.

The alternator needs a excitation voltage to work properly, like Gixer1460 said.

Depends on what year your alternator is, you have different connections.

Later models have separate connector, earlier ones an additional wire in parallel to the charging wire.

Try to make direct connection to the battery to supply the alternator with proper voltage.

If you've already done so, can't imagine why voltage is so low.

[rider384]

52 minutes ago, Nickel said:

Do you have wired up the alternator correctly?

From my point of view the alternator does not deliver any charging voltage.

Try to make direct connection to the battery to supply the alternator with proper voltage.

If you've already done so, can't imagine why voltage is so low.

The alternator is run through stock wiring. I tested the resistance of the alternator connector to battery and it was negligible. I agree that it doesn't seem to be delivering charging voltage. I know it's doing something because voltage goes up when I rev it, but not nearly as much as I've been lead to believe it should. I'm seeing 13v max at high RPM, and that's with a freshly charged battery. Anything less than a fully charged battery and it'll only go 0.2-0.3v above the voltage with accessories on.

I'll try wiring the alternator directly to the battery and see what happens. Maybe there's a power leech somewhere in the circuit that doesn't affect resistance. 

[rider384]

Updates:

Tossed a lithium battery in. Made zero difference. Datalog showed 12.3v with all accessories on but bike off, 12.5-12.6v running, 13v @ 4,500rpm, 12.4v running at the end of the run.  I measured 13.2v at the battery with all accessories and the bike fully off at the end of the run. 

Ordered a third alternator last night. 

Tested the alternator hooked directly up to the battery, no change. Checked all alternator wiring, it's fine. 

Can anyone tell me what I should expect it to read with EFI accessories at idle, off idle, and 5,000rpm? Workshop manual says 13.5v, but I don't know if I should realistically expect that with all the EFI stuff on it as well. 

[wombat258]

Throw a set of stock carbs and ignition in it and see if the alternator works OK. Go forward from there.

[Arttu]

Sounds like the alternator is doing something but not giving even close to full charging current. If you don't have some stupid big fuel pump or other very power hungry gadgets the alternator should be still able to feed all consumers and also charge the battery above the idle. Which means that the voltage should go over 13V and typically over 14V once the battery is fully charged.

A clamp type current meter would be one useful tool to figure out what is really happening there. With that you could check how much current your alternator is making and how much is drained through individual wires.

[Reinhoud]

Do those alternators have a build in rectifier/regulator?

[Nickel]

48 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

Do those alternators have a build in rectifier/regulator?

Yes

[Reinhoud]

Hmm, 3 broken alternators seem to be unlikely.

All plugs free of corosion?

I would make another wiring loom..

[Gixer1460]

58 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

Hmm, 3 broken alternators seem to be unlikely.

All plugs free of corosion?

I would make another wiring loom..

The OP has only had 2 - the original and a duff replacement - the third, he has just ordered. The alternator hook up has to be the simplest bit of wiring on the whole bike - one red, one orange, former to battery and latter split to ign. sw, and fusebox - not much to go wrong there!

[Blubber]

Do these alternators need a "wake up" signal ? you might even call it a feed back wire.

Sounds like it it not putting out max voltage .. reason yet unknow