Wagola Posted June 18, 2017 Author Posted June 18, 2017 Thanks, I'll put the cash towards the Dyna ignition I've always wanted and do the job properly. Quote
dupersunc Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 I prefer the Ignitech ignitions. Much cheaper, more programmable,and more functions, unless you can't drive a lap top. 1 Quote
markfoggy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 I'm thinking more about B12 engines, but is there any interference issue with high lift cams and the valve guide seals. This is a problem on GSX, but Yoshi stage II for GSXR seem to run long adjusters to compensate for smaller, closed, dwell diameter. What's the story if you want to go all out? Quote
Wagola Posted June 18, 2017 Author Posted June 18, 2017 4 hours ago, dupersunc said: I prefer the Ignitech ignitions. Much cheaper, more programmable,and more functions, unless you can't drive a lap top. Where do I get one of these from ? Never heard of them . I've got grandchildren to help me with the laptop. Quote
Gixer1460 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, markfoggy said: I'm thinking more about B12 engines, but is there any interference issue with high lift cams and the valve guide seals. This is a problem on GSX, but Yoshi stage II for GSXR seem to run long adjusters to compensate for smaller, closed, dwell diameter. What's the story if you want to go all out? Well if going 'all out', it's unlikely you'll be stuffing big cams in there without head, valve, spring and seal work. Max lift, from memory, before you get spring issues is 0.370" so after that the seats and retainers need adjustment also the guide needs recessing to allow higher lift without touching. I don't think you'll get a 'long term reliable GSXR type engine with lifts approaching and over 0.500" 1 Quote
Duckndive Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, Wagola said: Where do I get one of these from ? Never heard of them . I've got grandchildren to help me with the laptop. http://www.ignitech.cz/en/ 1 Quote
dupersunc Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 19 minutes ago, Wagola said: Where do I get one of these from ? Never heard of them . I've got grandchildren to help me with the laptop. Wot he Said^ Quote
nlovien Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 if you go with ignitech, seriously consider their 3D version, i've not used it ( do have a 2D) but the feed back from a well respected race bike builder suggests it is well worth the additional cost - basically with the addition of a throttle position sensor you can map the ignition relative to load and rpm providing a significant mid range improvement over a 2D set up Downside would be the time and focus in building the map to suit Quote
markfoggy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Gixer1460 said: Well if going 'all out', it's unlikely you'll be stuffing big cams in there without head, valve, spring and seal work. Max lift, from memory, before you get spring issues is 0.370" so after that the seats and retainers need adjustment also the guide needs recessing to allow higher lift without touching. I don't think you'll get a 'long term reliable GSXR type engine with lifts approaching and over 0.500" I'm just trying to gather a little info here, Yoshi II comes as a package with valves, caps, shims (head under spring) and the long adjusters, but no mention of further head work. I'd routinely fit uprated springs caps and collets with any lumpy cam, big valves being part of something that makes sense. I guess I'm trying to get my head around how far you can go on the standard valve seals. Not an area that I would like to mess with as reliability and oil consumption would be a maxim. Probably need to talk to MrU. Quote
markfoggy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Not exactly programmable, but I can vouch for these as being absolutely bullet proof. http://www.classic-raceshop.com/electronics/elektronik-sachse-digital-ignition-zdg3 Very easy to set up, find tdc, rotate plate until a little led comes on. Fire up bike. Quote
Upshotknothole Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 On 6/17/2017 at 3:41 AM, Gixer1460 said: Dot head will work ok with std bore but too high CR with a 1216 kit. Why not find a std set of M cams and get them reground, My M cams for my Turbo came from Ron Kroll in the States so new billet ones are available but not common...............or swop out to a K or L head then stupid number of cam variations are available? Cheers, I'll start keeping an eye out for K/L heads and M/N cams. Probably still gonna do the dot head swap as a short term boost and wait until over the winter for the 1216. I remember reading years ago that the M/N heads were capable of tossing a shim under high revs, but I'm guessing that's not really an issue on the street. Quote
dupersunc Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 I think you are getting confuddled. MN heads that toss shims are the 1100, and the cams aren't interchangeable with j/k or bandit heads as the followers are totally different. I'm building up a 1152 with a dot head at the moment, I've ended up removing quite a lot of material from the combustion chambers to unshroud the inlet valves, and a lesser extent the exhausts valves too. This happily increases the combustion chamber volume to a more 1216 friendly size. A clean up of the valve throats and short side turn, 3 angle valve job and it'll be golden. Quote
markfoggy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Interesting this. Well any bucket head can kick a shim if it's not maintained, but just how bad are they. Gut feeling says that this might be a good option to get revs out of a B12, rockers are rarely the best option. I'm also thinking that water melon heads may have some component compatibility, by which point the problem was probably all over. Anybody got any thoughts? Quote
Wagola Posted June 18, 2017 Author Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, markfoggy said: Not exactly programmable, but I can vouch for these as being absolutely bullet proof. http://www.classic-raceshop.com/electronics/elektronik-sachse-digital-ignition-zdg3 Very easy to set up, find tdc, rotate plate until a little led comes on. Fire up bike. That looks interesting as well. Was only looking at Dyna ignitions but looks like there are a few more alternatives out there. Quote
markfoggy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 No experience of one on a boiler, but plenty on an air cooler. Sachs web site doesn't list GSXR, but the company has been taken over by new owners in the last 12/18 months so they are probably nose to the grind wheel. Not a definite, but I think that they might be up for a bit of a chat about oil boilers, in fact given that one of their best markets is in Classic Endurance and Oil Boilers are starting to become very important, I would be surprised if they were not extremely helpful. There must be an Eprom in there to deliver the multiple maps that comes with the base unit, so I'm guessing that a custom map could be flashed in without too much bullshit. Quote
Oilyspanner Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, markfoggy said: Interesting this. Well any bucket head can kick a shim if it's not maintained, but just how bad are they. Gut feeling says that this might be a good option to get revs out of a B12, rockers are rarely the best option. I'm also thinking that water melon heads may have some component compatibility, by which point the problem was probably all over. Anybody got any thoughts? I spent a few years trying to find someone who had a shim fly lose from an M/N (I wanted to know cos I've got one), I couldn't find anyone first hand. I'm pretty sure a number of racers who fitted lumpy cams back in the day did have problems - which gets echoed about. There's a guy who has a 955cc shim head ultra trick 750M based bike and he's not had a problem in 2 decades, a lower revving 1100, well serviced bike will be fine. 1100 M/N has best head and will develop best power std (even in the U.S. which kept them on 36mm carbs)and with external bolt-ons . Of course as soon as you start porting, upping valve sizes, changing cams the head you started with doesn't make much odds, any well built head will far out strip any stock head - dot, shim head etc. The further you move from the standard head spec the longer you'll need to spend setting it up - ignition timing, cam phasing, jetting. It's easy to end up with a more powerful but peakier engine - at least our oil cooled engines can go out to 1340cc+ to regain mid-range ! Everyone has their opinion on fitting more radical cams, always seems a good idea, but can be a pain in the ass to get it running really well, you need to run stiffer springs, which absorb some of the extra power made. Ported , larger valves, 3 angle valve seat jobby, dial in the cams and with the bigger carbs (and 1216) you'll have loads more power everywhere - dead easy to use, wheelies from down low (nice !). I sp-nked away loads of cash on my bikes before I got married .... enjoyed every minute of it ! - do what you like Buddy, but have a clear idea what you want to achieve, it will save some dosh/time. Gone off track a bit there - as SuperDunc says, the shim head cams can only be used in shim head errr - heads and have 16 cam lobes with 16 followers , unlike the other engines. 1 Quote
Wagola Posted June 19, 2017 Author Posted June 19, 2017 What a great post ! I think I know where I'm going with my winter engine re-build. First off check the bore diameter to see if it has a 1216cc kit. If not fit one. Then maybe a bit of head work , RS36 or 38's, not exactly sure yet. And an ignition, maybe Ignitech. And that's about it. I've built Z900 engines with lumpy cams and not liked them on the road. Just one question to clarify tho............will the M/N shim head and cams fit straight onto my L rocker and screw adjuster bottom end ? And is it worth it ? This will only ever be a healthy road engine and no real need for wild top ends, prefer to have a grunty torque laden engine. Quote
Gixer1460 Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Personally if i'd had a serviceable K/L head I wouldn't swop to a shim head. The M/N only gave more power due to the 40mm carbs and revs the trade off was poor bottom end and difficult to set up! Quote
Wagola Posted June 19, 2017 Author Posted June 19, 2017 Sounds fair to me. Anything that saves me a few quid is good in my book. Shopping list for now is carbs and ignition. Quote
Oilyspanner Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Like above, I wouldn't swap your head for any other if you're going to freshen her up anyway - the B12 head is much the same as the K/L too and with cams and flowing produces really good figures when combined with a capacity/compression hike. I just wanted to make the point that if someone had a shim head it wouldn't really be worth getting rid of it - unless you wanted high lift cams, the slightly higher port lead in to the valve did a bit to help cylinder filling as standard and the 40mm carbs helped too - but as soon as you have whatever head flowed nicely you'll far out strip a standard port's flow rate. I've got a really good write-up by a 90's racer (had a shop too I think) who lists all the HP increases he got with each stage of engine development - unfortunately it's on pdf format and my frickin windows 10 doesn't convert files like windows 7 and I haven't found a suitable app yet. I'll find the link for you, as it's really useful and a good read : Post 9 in this thread - I found this really good info. http://www.say what now!?.com/forums/15-oil-cooled-gixxers/217463-horsepower-questions.html Quote
MeanBean49 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 For me a great road motor would be 1216cc, portred locknut head and gsxr cams on slotted sprockets, wouldnt go mad on upping compression too much, I would go for a nice full akra or yoshi and a set of rs36's. Ignition wise dyna coil minis and i cant recomend Ignitech's highly enough, way better than over priced dyna rubbish. Pingel tap and a good oil cooler plus a head cooler is a good idea too. Keeping them cool is key to a good reliable tuned motor. For a real ultimate road motor though you cant beat a turbo :-) 1 Quote
Solcambs Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) On 19/06/2017 at 5:12 PM, Oilyspanner said: Post 9 in this thread - I found this really good info. http://www.say what now!?.com/forums/15-oil-cooled-gixxers/217463-horsepower-questions.html The claims in that post seem to be crank numbers ... and of course, it's a drag racing motor - which in truth would not take road riding very well without thinking about cooling. UI'd expect it to need octane boost in the fuel at that compression! My plan is for the 1100L motor is 1216, porting, minor cam grind, slotted, FCR 39 carbs, undecided on exhaust (but probably racefit legend if I can afford one) - already have dynacoils and dyna2000. I've read that the valves flow plenty for 150 rwhp 90 ftlbs - which to be honest in a Kat750 frame will be enough to be going on with, and would make stonking road/track engine. Edited January 9, 2018 by Solcambs Quote
Wagola Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 26 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said: For me a great road motor would be 1216cc, portred locknut head and gsxr cams on slotted sprockets, wouldnt go mad on upping compression too much, I would go for a nice full akra or yoshi and a set of rs36's. Ignition wise dyna coil minis and i cant recomend Ignitech's highly enough, way better than over priced dyna rubbish. Pingel tap and a good oil cooler plus a head cooler is a good idea too. Keeping them cool is key to a good reliable tuned motor. For a real ultimate road motor though you cant beat a turbo :-) Hi. Pretty much the way I have decided to go after the wisdom imparted here. I keep hearing about 'head coolers'. I get what is meant by them but where do I get one from ?? Quote
MeanBean49 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wagola said: Hi. Pretty much the way I have decided to go after the wisdom imparted here. I keep hearing about 'head coolers'. I get what is meant by them but where do I get one from ?? Easier to just buy the adaptors and make one up. Jkc race and rally do 10 row extra wide coolers for about £30, 2m of braided hose off Eblag is £20 and then you can get the fittings of Torques, you need all AN8 1x straight, 4x 90 degree, 2x rocker fittings, 1x oil take off fitting and a 3 way splitter, and the i got some 2.5 inch aluminium angle to make a bracket. About £100 all in I think Edited June 20, 2017 by MeanBean49 Quote
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