blowing o-rings

[rerb]

Went to the drag strip, fed her 18 psi, and now it needs the head taken off.

Either the temps (almost 100f) or prolonged RPMS caused the o-ring for the front oil drain tube to bork itself, spewing out oil whenever the motor runs. I know the head needs to come off, but has anyone seen this before? am I just unlucky? Anyways the bike still "runs" fine, I even wrapped the speedo on the way to the strip. 

Assuming the temps might've had something to do with it, could both feeding and draining an oil cooler from the bottom cause oil to not reach all the veins in the core? The outside of the engine can boil water after just a relaxed interstate cruise. I'm thinking that since I installed the feed and drain on the bottom of the oil cooler, oil isn't getting properly cooled. Not sure if oil pressure is enough to spew it around the core or not, curious if anyone here has any thoughts about that. I didn't find any orientation instructions on the MFG's website.

 

[Gixer1460]

Myths and rumours about bottom connected coolers abound - and they are all bollux!

Its been discussed many times before on OSS - simply put, oil comes in one side and out the other. Any air will be pushed out with the first 'injection' of oil. Both ends of the oil lines are submerged below oil level and so, once cooler is full, it WILL NOT drain as air cannot get in to replace the oil - Nature hates a vacuum ! The cooler will only drain when you drain the sump!

Its more likely crankcase compression is cause of blowing out a seal - its an unusual one to go, but it happens if non OEM seals used! If you are reaching those temps whilst 'cruising' I'd say your cooler is waaaaaay too small and needs an upgrade especially if dumping turbo heat into it also!

[rerb]

4 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Myths and rumours about bottom connected coolers abound - and they are all bollux!

Its been discussed many times before on OSS - simply put, oil comes in one side and out the other. Any air will be pushed out with the first 'injection' of oil. Both ends of the oil lines are submerged below oil level and so, once cooler is full, it WILL NOT drain as air cannot get in to replace the oil - Nature hates a vacuum ! The cooler will only drain when you drain the sump!

Its more likely crankcase compression is cause of blowing out a seal - its an unusual one to go, but it happens if non OEM seals used! If you are reaching those temps whilst 'cruising' I'd say your cooler is waaaaaay too small and needs an upgrade especially if dumping turbo heat into it also!

Ok good, the oil cooler is a 19 row earl's performance one, it better be big enough for the $350 I spent on it. I do have the oil fill cap style breather, but it sounds like drilling and tapping the clutch cover for another one would be a good idea.

[FJD]

Those O-Rings might also have been old, and just packed up...nothing unheard of, happened before, and will happen again.

Maybe replace with better material - Viton etc

[Gixer1460]

I used a 19 row, std width Mocal cooler on my turbo Kawazuki and that never got daftly hot except when stuck in slow traffic exiting race meets etc. I had -10 oil lines for good flow and 4No crankcase breathers : -8 in filler neck, -10 in clutch cover, -10 in cam cover and -8 from head breather tower . . . . . . turbo's breathe hard!

[badger]

Also if they weren't genuine orings in there they never last, been there and done it. Worth going genuine for those everytime 

[rerb]

Right. New set of genuine ones ordered, Curious to see how the old ones look

[rerb]

Dug into it - not the O-rings. I think the copper base gasket started leaking because when I pulled the cylinders, it was stuck to the bottom of the jugs except for one section that was peeled away, exactly where oil was coming from. Probably a fuck-up during install. 

Another weird thing: 2 of the APE head nuts rounded off at the stud. Completely lost their thread. Looking at it, it seems that the studs were nowhere tall enough for proper thread depth (only 4 or 5 threads deep in the nut). What gives? did I put them in the wrong location? I ordered a new set of studs and nuts. I know OEM studs have 3 sizes, but the APE ones seem to all be the same. If the new ones have the same issue, can I forgo the copper washer under the nut for more threads?

And finally, I had O-rings over 2 studs under the cylinders, but looking at suzukipartshouse diagrams, I don't see any listed. Does the base gasket not have o-rings over the front corner cylinder studs? 

Thanks. 

[colinworth79]

I use steel gaskets after a copper one shat its self .

Use the o rings ect as the standard placement . I think from memory there is only a base gasket and 2 location dowels at the bottom of the barrel and 6 o rings things at the top where oil goes up and down the studs. 

Studs I would say you have a couple in the wrong location as there is 2 different lengths in the engine but should be fairly obvious when you lay the head on the barrel . Keep the copper washers as oe i would say .

[george 1100]

10 hours ago, rerb said:

Dug into it - not the O-rings. I think the copper base gasket started leaking because when I pulled the cylinders, it was stuck to the bottom of the jugs except for one section that was peeled away, exactly where oil was coming from. Probably a fuck-up during install. 

Another weird thing: 2 of the APE head nuts rounded off at the stud. Completely lost their thread. Looking at it, it seems that the studs were nowhere tall enough for proper thread depth (only 4 or 5 threads deep in the nut). What gives? did I put them in the wrong location? I ordered a new set of studs and nuts. I know OEM studs have 3 sizes, but the APE ones seem to all be the same. If the new ones have the same issue, can I forgo the copper washer under the nut for more threads?

And finally, I had O-rings over 2 studs under the cylinders, but looking at suzukipartshouse diagrams, I don't see any listed. Does the base gasket not have o-rings over the front corner cylinder studs? 

Thanks. 

Do you have a spacer plate under the block?

As far as the studs go, you need to have at least 10mm of thread on the studs once everything is assembled including washers. A 10mm stud into an aluminium thread needs minimum 20mm embedment and a 10mm nut needs minimum 10mm of thread as a rule. I recently reassembled my motor and set the studs with Loctite at the exact height first then installed my spacer and base gasket with copper spray. You can measure the stud height by dummy assembling everything or by measuring you base gasket, cylinder spacer if you have one, cylinder, head gasket, head, washers and adding all that together. Use new washers and when you torque the head, put moly on the thread and on the underside of the nut. Torque to APE specs.

Maybe the o-rings blew out due to excessive blow by? Just a thought, I'm not a turbo expert

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by george 1100

[rerb]

I think the O-ring blew out because I was stupid and put an o-ring where there wasn't supposed to be an o-ring... I put 2 extra head O-rings under the cylinders for whatever reason. I gave APE a call and they said I'll be fine without the washers, but if I can fit them I'll run them. Maybe i flipped the long threaded end of the stud around? I'll find out when i finish pulling it apart. Thanks for the help guys.

[george 1100]

I just made the same mistake by following the APE stud installing method which says the torque the studs into the block meaning they will bottom out which leads to not enough thread for nut to go on. Against my better judgement, I didn't run the washers and ended up with a blown head gasket. Don't go there

[baldrick]

53 minutes ago, george 1100 said:

I just made the same mistake by following the APE stud installing method which says the torque the studs into the block meaning they will bottom out which leads to not enough thread for nut to go on. Against my better judgement, I didn't run the washers and ended up with a blown head gasket. Don't go there

so the studs are obviously too short if torqueing them down means not enough thread left up top?

or are you running spacer plates etc?

if not then whats the answer? Maybe threadlock the bottom studs, but dont torquue them,  leaving enough thread up top? im asking because i have a set of these to install at some point/#?

[rerb]

Weird, they told me call back if the new ones have the same issue. I'm thinking it's a possible oversight from being designed for the gsxr and something in the bandits head is just a little thicker? Not sure. No spacers, std. Base gasket and head gasket.

[george 1100]

2 hours ago, baldrick said:

so the studs are obviously too short if torqueing them down means not enough thread left up top?

or are you running spacer plates etc?

if not then whats the answer? Maybe threadlock the bottom studs, but dont torquue them,  leaving enough thread up top? im asking because i have a set of these to install at some point/#?

I'm running a 2.5mm spacer because of the busa rods but even without a spacer you should check that you don't sink the studs in too far. If they bottom out and you have minimum 10mm of thread for the nut, then you are good to go, if not wind them out and use thread locker. Do not torque the head with dry nuts, use moly. 

 

[george 1100]

1 hour ago, rerb said:

Weird, they told me call back if the new ones have the same issue. I'm thinking it's a possible oversight from being designed for the gsxr and something in the bandits head is just a little thicker? Not sure. No spacers, std. Base gasket and head gasket.

Regardless, you should check and make sure as per above post. At the end of the day, there is no benefit in the stud bottoming out, the most important thing is to have the correct thread embedment and enough thread for the nuts. When you look at the upper case, some threads start deeper than others 

[rerb]

19 minutes ago, george 1100 said:

Regardless, you should check and make sure as per above post. At the end of the day, there is no benefit in the stud bottoming out, the most important thing is to have the correct thread embedment and enough thread for the nuts. When you look at the upper case, some threads start deeper than others 

Makes sense, I wouldn't've thought it would be ok to run them not bottomed out. Red or blue threadlock? And what is moly? grease?

[george 1100]

36 minutes ago, rerb said:

Makes sense, I wouldn't've thought it would be ok to run them not bottomed out. Red or blue threadlock? And what is moly? grease?

I used blue. A dab of moly assembly lube on the thread and bottom of the nut. Makes a world of difference. Once torqued, go back the next day a retourque. This give the stud time to stretch. Use a couple of coats of copper spray on the base gasket as a safeguard 

[clivegto]

I also wound the ape studs in to far when torquing them down. So had to wind them out and use a little thread lock as has already been mentioned. Was very surprised by this. 

[rerb]

So the machine shop told me the head had scratches from the head gasket at the middle 2 cylinders, he thinks either from too high cylinder pressure, or the issue with the head studs. Anyone have a clue or dealt with this before? I don't want to bolt it all together just to blow a headgasket once I turn up the power, and I don't see much mention of that from other forums.

[rerb]

9 hours ago, clivegto said:

I also wound the ape studs in to far when torquing them down. So had to wind them out and use a little thread lock as has already been mentioned. Was very surprised by this. 

When you wound them in without bottoming them out, did you still get them to 15ft lbs? And to make sure, the nuts torque to 42 ft lbs, right? APE says that but since the hg mightve been loose I just want to verify.

[Gixer1460]

9 minutes ago, rerb said:

When you wound them in without bottoming them out, did you still get them to 15ft lbs? And to make sure, the nuts torque to 42 ft lbs, right? APE says that but since the hg mightve been loose I just want to verify.

My god I've been doing it wrong! Short thread into block with blue loctite finger tight - job done. Never pulled a thread or run out of thread length - weird!

[Fredrik_Steen]

On 9/25/2022 at 6:14 PM, rerb said:

When you wound them in without bottoming them out, did you still get them to 15ft lbs? And to make sure, the nuts torque to 42 ft lbs, right? APE says that but since the hg mightve been loose I just want to verify.

I torque to 50-55 ft lbs lubed (depending on the feel in the handle) you can't use the oem washers Steel and copper. They are to soft and you will loose tension. Buy special hardened washers

[Baron]

On 9/26/2022 at 11:51 PM, Fredrik_Steen said:

I torque to 50-55 ft lbs lubed (depending on the feel in the handle) you can't use the oem washers Steel and copper. They are to soft and you will loose tension. Buy special hardened washers

I'm also going to put APE studs on mine, where can you get those hardened washers?

[Fredrik_Steen]

21 minutes ago, Baron said:

I'm also going to put APE studs on mine, where can you get those hardened washers?

I got mine locally here in Sweden by a steel company. The washers are minimum 45 HRC

Dimensions was 10.4 x 20,4