turbo/EFI setup

[jameskat]

The one I machined machined like cast/wrought iron so I just drilled and tapped the intersection in 3 places, but brazing would work.

Edited September 12, 2020 by jameskat
detail

[Jmckechnie]

I have a 1990 GSXR 750L, currently set to run 14.7lbs Boost and lays a solid 200hp at the wheel. I managed to set a 750-M-BF record in Utah last summer with a 180mph qualifying run and 184 mph backup run on the intermediate 5mile course. Next time I’ll try for the long course and see what it can REALLY do!

 

Engine Management System - Megasquirt 2, V3.0 board operating MS2extra 3.4.2. I have a CANEGT module with 4 closed tip probes for 1-4cyl, 2 open tip probes mounted in special adapters to read pre and post oil cooler temps, and one mounted right after the turbo to show me turbo outlet temp readings. I’ve also got a turbo oil feed pressure sensor, a main oil gallery pressure sensor, and a fuel pressure sensor- I can only read one at a time ( out of analog inputs ). I’m using Speed density engine control and batch injection. 

 

Ignition system: stock VR sensor reading cranks speed via 24-2 trigger-wheel made by Arttu, output controlled by MS2 FET drivers —->triggering a Mitsubishi J702T ignitor(from a Mazda miata I believe), and I’ve been using an IGN4 wasted spark coil with regular ole wires and plugs, nothing fancy. Oh, and CR10 spark plugs with a slightly reduced gap.

 

Throttle bodies: k7/8 tb’s spaced in the middle and jammed in to the stock boots, with stock injectors. I’m using a staged injection setup- once I reach a high enough duty cycle on my primaries I transition to 50/50 between primaries and secondaries. Duty cycle at current power level is about 65%

 

Injector sizes: Primary and secondary are 225cc I believe. 

 

Std Coils or Pencil stick coils (type / part number / model) : IGN-4 wasted spark

 

Fuel pressure at pump: walbro pump but I can’t remember what it flows (255 I think)- I do remember that it had 30% excess fuel flow at a flow rate to give enough fuel for 300hp. Aeromotive FPR referencing port vacuum/boost.

 

I have an MS3x ready to plop in there with a BUNCH of additional sensors and hope to have this baby fine tuned and ready to race on the salt again in 2021..

Here are 2 dyno runs almost a year apart. They’re both in red ( sorry ) but the light red was last 2019, and darker red was a few months ago. Since my first trip I’ve tried to flatten that torque up top, and my little tweaks worked, but boost control is not my strong point so there are some fluctuations

 

I was a happy camper after I tortured it in bonneville.. 9 runs in total. My last 2 runs were wot for around 50 seconds! Thanks to a solid tuning platform, my AFR was solid at 11.5-11.7, and with all the other information I was able to collect I could run with confidence and focus on staying straight and upright. 

I owe a lot of what I was able to accomplish to a lot of you guys- by posting and sharing experiences online in places like this, I could learn and teach myself what to do ( and what not to do hahah). 

Thanks fellas

Oldskoolsuzukis kicks ass!

[mikeyd]

Jmckechnie, Thats huge power out of that motor. Does it have stock internals? And does it put you in another class if you put an upper fairing on it?

[Jmckechnie]

@mikeydthank you, but Suzuki takes the credit for building a solid motor! The motor is totally stock aside from heavy duty custom turbo pistons from WEISCO. 

 

If i I have any kind of aerodynamic aid, it will most definitely put me into another class. For now I chose to race in the open class to keep my build simple. 

A fellow I was privileged to meet on the salt and fellow Canadian ( Tom Mellor, google ‘Tom Mellor triumph’) has a VERY impressive aerodynamic fairing that was home Built and had propelled him into the 200mph club several times with naturally aspirated motors.. one year he rode his bike in 2 classes, one with and one with out the fairing. That fairing gave him a 40-50 mph speed difference. I think typical gains might be in the 20mph range with proper aero. The engine he was using when I met him was in the 1000cc class, and made a whopping 110-115hp, and his shake down run came in at 192mph!!!

One day I’ll take a chapter out of his book, and I’ll build a similar fairing. 

[mikeyd]

I'm thinking about stripping some weight off that bike too. Free to do - Passenger pegs!!!!

[slingy1157]

On 9/11/2020 at 2:17 AM, redwater said:

Arrived trigger. Weld or not to weld, that is the question ?

I didn’t weld mine. Just a machined press fit is fine. There is no load on it essentially and the hardness of the 2 materials is very similar so the expansion rates should be close so the press fit resistance should be the same regardless of temperature. Plus if you want to change the missing tooth spacing to aid starting or anything, you can. 

[IhmeJanneFIN]

On 3/20/2017 at 12:49 AM, no class said:

Throttle bodies :   Thought I would pass on a little info on fitting the gsxr600 tb's into the oil cooled intake boots without using a 50 ton hydraulic press . The procedure takes about an hour .

I know that this is an old post, but I gotta ask you @no class.

What boots did you use on our build and on what engine with these throttle bodies?

As a trackday bike I have a gsxr k6 600 and just measured those throttle bodies on it and I got 71-76-71 c-c spacing on those. On my 750f DOT head the carbs are spaced 78-90-78, so I am bit puzzled that how you managed to fit those throttle bodies. Between 2&3 it's quite easy to space out, but the paired 1&2 and 3&4 leaves me wondering. Did you rearrange your boots in different order?

[ColinH]

This thread is super useful to somebody new to bike builds like myself.

I do some automation in my day job and wondered if anyone had built a control unit from a PLC. Some of the units are now low voltage and very compact. 
 

PID loops and other controls are common and high switching speeds with solid state now.

Maybe this is complete madness but it wouldn’t be my first stupid idea 

[Arttu]

7 hours ago, ColinH said:

This thread is super useful to somebody new to bike builds like myself.

I do some automation in my day job and wondered if anyone had built a control unit from a PLC. Some of the units are now low voltage and very compact. 
 

PID loops and other controls are common and high switching speeds with solid state now.

Maybe this is complete madness but it wouldn’t be my first stupid idea 

Never heard anyone doing that and I'm not familiar enough with today's PLCs to say if it's doable or not. But I'm pretty confident that there is virtually no any sensible reason to even attempt that, compared to using any proper ECU. Except if you want to take it as a "can I do it?" challenge...

[ColinH]

2 hours ago, Arttu said:

Never heard anyone doing that and I'm not familiar enough with today's PLCs to say if it's doable or not. But I'm pretty confident that there is virtually no any sensible reason to even attempt that, compared to using any proper ECU. Except if you want to take it as a "can I do it?" challenge...

Sensible reasons and me don’t go well together 

I will be fitting a proper ECU but the challenge is intriguing. I have the PLC and software so something I may mess with for fun. A little side project to soothe my disturbed mind!

What I know about engine management, isn’t worth knowing, so maybe playing with this will help me learn some things. 

 

 

[Rncv]

 

1 minute ago, ColinH said:

Sensible reasons and me don’t go well together 

I will be fitting a proper ECU but the challenge is intriguing. I have the PLC and software so something I may mess with for fun. A little side project to soothe my disturbed mind!

What I know about engine management, isn’t worth knowing, so maybe playing with this will help me learn some things. 

 

 

Main reason is cost, you won't get an IP rated PLC at the same price as an off the shelf ECU. 

[ColinH]

1 minute ago, Rncv said:

 

Main reason is cost, you won't get an IP rated PLC at the same price as an off the shelf ECU. 

That’s a very good point. Can put in a rated enclosure but then that makes it large.

My warped thinking was started by one of these Mitsubishi FX copies from china I bought as a desk test rig.

 

these are relay output from memory so wouldn’t be fast enough switching. I will play with programme and see if the speeds are possible with the programme scan speed etc.

As said above it’s a fun side project and will get me improving on PLC and engine management so win win 

 

[Arttu]

10 minutes ago, ColinH said:

What I know about engine management, isn’t worth knowing, so maybe playing with this will help me learn some things.

For sure you will learn a thing or two while trying. But trust me, there is enough to learn for a while even if you start with a ready-made ECU. Or at least for most of the people. I have seen quite many more or less successful EFI conversions over the years. Usually ones that start with ambitious plans and aim to re-invent the wheel are ones which never get running...

[ColinH]

57 minutes ago, Arttu said:

For sure you will learn a thing or two while trying. But trust me, there is enough to learn for a while even if you start with a ready-made ECU. Or at least for most of the people. I have seen quite many more or less successful EFI conversions over the years. Usually ones that start with ambitious plans and aim to re-invent the wheel are ones which never get running...

Yes totally agree there as that is one of my downfalls, want to do everything and end up with nothing as a result! I am looking at options for ECU at present hence reading this thread. There seems to be only a few for the budget conscious tinkerer and probably going the megasquirt route.

I appreciate you offering advice 

[peter1127]

Of course building stuff yourself will keep you busy with a nice project and you will learn a ton.  Will you have the same result than  even a budget unit like a microsquirt? Unlikely. One lean mishap and its very costly. 

My advice is to check the manuals of microsquirt: very detailed and useful, and valuable input even if you decide for another unit or the diy route.  Manual for hardware, manual for software and manual for setting stuff up.  I'm really happy with this stuff.

https://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

[ColinH]

1 hour ago, peter1127 said:

Of course building stuff yourself will keep you busy with a nice project and you will learn a ton.  Will you have the same result than  even a budget unit like a microsquirt? Unlikely. One lean mishap and its very costly. 

My advice is to check the manuals of microsquirt: very detailed and useful, and valuable input even if you decide for another unit or the diy route.  Manual for hardware, manual for software and manual for setting stuff up.  I'm really happy with this stuff.

https://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

Thanks for that link, that will make for some great learning. I will use ECU for the bike as there are enough ways I can cock this up, without adding a software brain fart to the mix  Will make a fun side project though as I'm looking to get back into automation more for work and needed a fun project to do that. If it ever develops and needs putting into a vehicle, I think somebody else's is the best start.

[Rncv]

5 hours ago, ColinH said:

That’s a very good point. Can put in a rated enclosure but then that makes it large.

My warped thinking was started by one of these Mitsubishi FX copies from china I bought as a desk test rig.

 

these are relay output from memory so wouldn’t be fast enough switching. I will play with programme and see if the speeds are possible with the programme scan speed etc.

As said above it’s a fun side project and will get me improving on PLC and engine management so win win 

 

Have you ever worked with mitsi PID loops in Gxworks3? 
They are incredibly difficult to get right. Mitsi do add on units which do this for you as they know their controllers suck. 

[ColinH]

21 minutes ago, Rncv said:

Have you ever worked with mitsi PID loops in Gxworks3? 
They are incredibly difficult to get right. Mitsi do add on units which do this for you as they know their controllers suck. 

That's a good point, I haven't used GX Works for anything that complex. I know may other PLCs now offer PID blocks that work well. The thing I love about FX PLC is is simplicity and the thing I hate is simplicity 

[Arttu]

10 hours ago, ColinH said:

Yes totally agree there as that is one of my downfalls, want to do everything and end up with nothing as a result! I am looking at options for ECU at present hence reading this thread. There seems to be only a few for the budget conscious tinkerer and probably going the megasquirt route.

Megasquirt 2 and 3 based ECUs are good choices, at least regarding the software options. Unfortunately bike oriented hardware variants (small and sealed) are a bit limited. But for example the Microsquirt is a good and proven choice. Some unofficial clones could be worth of checking as well.

Other budget oriented options which should be ok are Speeduino and RusEFI but I don't have any personal experience about them so can't say anything about their pros and cons.

Or if you want to invest a bit more the MaxxECU Mini is one good option too. Limited IOs but software is really flexible.

[ColinH]

14 hours ago, Arttu said:

Megasquirt 2 and 3 based ECUs are good choices, at least regarding the software options. Unfortunately bike oriented hardware variants (small and sealed) are a bit limited. But for example the Microsquirt is a good and proven choice. Some unofficial clones could be worth of checking as well.

Other budget oriented options which should be ok are Speeduino and RusEFI but I don't have any personal experience about them so can't say anything about their pros and cons.

Or if you want to invest a bit more the MaxxECU Mini is one good option too. Limited IOs but software is really flexible.

Thanks for the insight there. I think with megasquirt there is lots of knowledge more openly shared than other systems, so to a stubborn DIYer like myself, that’s very valuable.

i will have a look at manuals and decide on how I want to run the bike and then get something bought.

 

[Gixer1460]

If you like / are into / can understand, coding - the Speeduino could be a good choice as its based around an Arduino Mega - not very small board but packs a big spec! And I believe it has a degree of 'self learning' capability which could be useful - I was a bit sceptical of this a few years ago but they are really getting quite good. I saw a video of a Holley unit taken out of the box, given the basic info about engine, plugged in and it ran. Then on a drive it learnt and improved maps continually to a very accurate result - its not AI nor SkyNet but its bloody good nonetheless!

[ColinH]

On 11/2/2024 at 11:31 AM, Gixer1460 said:

If you like / are into / can understand, coding - the Speeduino could be a good choice as its based around an Arduino Mega - not very small board but packs a big spec! And I believe it has a degree of 'self learning' capability which could be useful - I was a bit sceptical of this a few years ago but they are really getting quite good. I saw a video of a Holley unit taken out of the box, given the basic info about engine, plugged in and it ran. Then on a drive it learnt and improved maps continually to a very accurate result - its not AI nor SkyNet but its bloody good nonetheless!

I thought I had replied to this but seems not. Thanks for the reply. I’m not great with code, more ladder logic bit maybe good time to learn