Project; Whizzy Pop Slingshot

[Danm54]

Passed the MOT with an advisory for a noisy exhaust, not sure why....

 

Had a mate take it down as I was busy with work and he got caught in traffic for 5-10 mins, the bike cut out and wouldn't start until it had cooled for best part of an hour. I need to try an keep some heat away from the intake area, got some heat wrap and a turbo heat blanket on the way.

 

Been out today, the vid isn't great as I struggled to find anywhere good for the camera and the bike still has some running issues.

It gets hot, very quick. Coolant was up to 60c within half a mile, stayed there ok as long as I was doing 60 with low rpm's. As soon as I opened it up a little it was up to 70c and stayed there then cut out when I had to stop for some lights.

Clutch isn't right as it doesn't like changing gear at higher rpm, thought I was in 5th as it wouldn't change up but when I slowed a bit it changed fine..

The rev counter still doesn't work right either so I don't know what rpm its reaching, need to get that sorted before the next run out.

The run back was better but didn't record it as I expected it to cut out again, still sat at 70c but made it home fine. Did try out the quickshifter though and it works lovely, little pop from the exhaust and a nice smooth gear change. Will be using that all the time.

The breathers are spraying a bit of oil out which is ending up on the right side of the rear tyre, there's also an oil leak under the seat which is making its way down the left side of the bike and ending up on the left side of the rear tyre.

 

Had a look through the ignition timing, will need to check what the stock timing is but could this cause so much heat build up so quickly if set incorrectly?

 

Vid to follow once its uploaded.

[Duckndive]

3 hours ago, Danm54 said:

 

Had a look through the ignition timing, will need to check what the stock timing is but could this cause so much heat build up so quickly if set incorrectly?

 

Vid to follow once its uploaded.

Yes to much retard on ignition will cause excess heat very quickly  

[Danm54]

Got a couple of pics of the map

 

 

And the MAP correction table

 

Can only find info for stock advance below 1500rpm, not what it switches to after it.

 

Also flushed the coolant out and checked the thermostat, it works but I've left it out to see if the extra flow helps things.

[Danm54]

Its not a great vid but its something!

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Danm54

[slingy1157]

Does Guy Martin know you have his Tune file lol?

The lower rpm, lower tps areas of the table are quite low in advance compared to where they should be i think.

As bikes generally have a 2D style RPM based ignition map it seems quite complicated for no gain and it seems REALLY wierd to have the advance TPS referenced as well?

Cant see this having any real relationship to engine load so is very ambiguous in what it can do. You have the manifold pressure compensation which looks ok so all the main table needs to be is an RPM based 2D table (like the OEM) as the manifold pressure compensation will add the 3rd dimension on a calculated basis rather than just a look up table.

All the advance should be in by about 2500rpm as well.

Here's a copy of my current table which i did originally for my 1052cc based motor which has all the timing in by 2350rpm according to the manual and it is RPM/Manifiold pressure based. So for all values up to 100kpa or NA running are the same for each rpm column, but then start to retard above this point as the boost comes in.

You can also see that at the lower end of the table i raise the timing a bit so if the engine stumbles or drops revs there is a bit of a pick me up effect to help stop stalling.

So, if it were me i would make all the columns up to and including 1200rpm 15*, the 1500rpm column 19.2*, 1800rpm column 23.4*, 2100rpm column 27.6*, 2400rpm column 31.8* then the 2700rpm column and above 36*(or whatever you max advance value is) and then tweak it from there. All the boost retard will be a calculated reduction off this table so no need to have retard on this table itself.  

[slingy1157]

Oh and i don't think 70*C is too hot. Most automotive thermostats are rated to only start opening at that kind of temp, and coolant dosn't boil untill over 100*c so plenty of margin there. I wouldn't remove the thermostat either! one of the functions of the thermostat is to slow the flow of coolant enough that it has enough time in the rad to loose the heat. If you remove it, the flow is so fast it dosn't have a chance to dissipate the heat in the rad and goes back into the motor too hot, hence the overheating continues. I would just monitor for the minute, and maybe start formulating plans for a bigger rad or something if you are concerned.

[Danm54]

Well I have the base map from his Martek but I'm not sure he knows...

 

That's pretty much how I set up the MS when it had that fitted, I may look back at those figures and try them out. I've no idea why this is so complex.

 

The bit that concerned me with the temps is how quick it got there, I've only got the dial on the standard 1100 so I don't know what temp it actually sits at.

The manual says the stat will open at 105c so I do have a long way to go to reach that, it should run fine at the temp its reached so I'm not sure why it cuts out.

Thanks for the info, gives me something to start on.

 

Called Specialist Components today as well, they say a pull up resistor will get the tacho working so I'll give that a try.

 

[colinworth79]

my gsxr 1000 k4 has a digital readout for coolant , if you start it and then put your lid and gloves on it will be getting up to 50 c ish and about half a mile up the road its up to 80 where the stat opens and will run between 85-95 depending on traffic . Fan cuts in at 105 c . Think your gsxr should be roughly same for stat opening and running temps .

[Danm54]

1 hour ago, colinworth79 said:

my gsxr 1000 k4 has a digital readout for coolant , if you start it and then put your lid and gloves on it will be getting up to 50 c ish and about half a mile up the road its up to 80 where the stat opens and will run between 85-95 depending on traffic . Fan cuts in at 105 c . Think your gsxr should be roughly same for stat opening and running temps .

Maybe its not so bad then, could be the heat from the turbo on my leg giving me the impression that's its getting too hot. Will have to let it get hotter and see if it stabilizes.

Re-read the manual and the stat stars opening at ~80c and the fan cuts in at 105c.

 

The pull up resistor works fine from the quick start up it got, will see how it performs on a ride out.

Changed the ignition timing as well, its a 2D map now and is pretty much as you suggested @slingy1157 didn't start it up as it was gone 9pm and I try not to annoy the neighbours too much. Set the 600rpm & 900rpm columns to 10 and 12 degrees as the were on the MS map.

 

Put the stat back in as suggested, will also show me if the timing change makes any difference to temps.

 

The oil leak is from a flared fitting on the solid lines to the cooler, gave it a clean off and re-tightened but I'll have to keep an eye on it next ride out.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that the ECU runs closed loop lambda with a correction factor off the injector table. Its currently set to allow up to 20% correction. Does this seem a little

excessive?

 

Thanks

Edited July 11, 2016 by Danm54

[Arttu]

7 hours ago, Danm54 said:

Another thing I've noticed is that the ECU runs closed loop lambda with a correction factor off the injector table. Its currently set to allow up to 20% correction. Does this seem a little

excessive?

Yes, that's quite a lot. Maybe ok for tuning phase if actual fuel table isn't completely finalized.

Usually when I start tuning the fuel table from scratch I first turn lambda correction completely off. Once the table start getting the shape so that engine is driveable I may turn it on and allow 15-20% maximum correction. This helps to keep the engine running smoothly while doing test rides and taking data logs. When analyzing the logs it's easy to determine required adjustments from correction and AFR values. When I'm happy with the fuel table I reduce lambda correction to 5-10% or turn it completely off.

 

[Gixer1460]

Why have a 600rpm range? I'd say 900 was about as low as you need and even use that with a kick up in the ign. table for 'anti-stall'? Need some more range at the top end as even with a turbo you can hit the limiter and you'll need fuel there!

[slingy1157]

5 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Why have a 600rpm range? I'd say 900 was about as low as you need and even use that with a kick up in the ign. table for 'anti-stall'? Need some more range at the top end as even with a turbo you can hit the limiter and you'll need fuel there!

You dont need a 600rpm column. Mine starts at 800rpm but as Danm54's table already has it, its easier to just leave it there. You would have to change every column value which dosnt seem worth the effort. It dosnt hurt to have some scaling outside of the normall operating parameters of an engine

[Danm54]

Found a cause for it cutting out, one of the bolts that mount the turbo had fell out and its one that the hole breaks through into the compressor housing.

Would have been drawing too much air in on closed throttle which is why it cut out when I shut the throttle when warm.

 

Sounded a little better on the new ignition map and even better once the bolt had been replaced.

Heat wrap and a bend for the exhaust shield should be here tomorrow to stop me burning my leg for the next test ride.

[Danm54]

Another run out today, got the same distance though!

Sat at lights for a minute and watched the coolant temp creap up, cut out exactly on 100c

 

While I was sat waiting for it to cool down I reloaded the ignition map it came back with, seemed to run the same temp on the way back but sat with it running and the temp didn't rise as quickly. Definitely felt quicker though.

 

Will try it with that map but without the retard on boost.

 

Need to keep plenum temps down so will wrap the last bit of up pipe. Considering putting some heat reflective mat on the plenum, thing is I don't want to insulate it and keep heat in.

 

The heat shield on the exhaust worked well but it still gets pretty warm.

[Danm54]

Bit more progress, it runs up to and over 100c fine in the shed so I think it was just coincidence that it cut out at 100c.

 

Got the infrared thermometer on it though and the flow connection on the rad is a good 10c hotter that the temp sensor reads, it does cross above the headers after the sensor and the stat but I didn't think it would really gain any heat from them. Clearly it does.

 

I've started to move the stat over to the other side so it doesn't cross over the headers to see if that improves things, it might also give me a more even flow through the cylinders but I'm unsure as the standard bike is piped both ways depending on the year.

 

Its damn tight though which is why I piped it the way I did in the first place.

 

[Danm54]

Finished re piping the rad, didn't make any difference.

Pulled the rad of the standard 1100w and tried that but I hooked the laptop up this time for a few more readings.

Note that everything is set exactly as it came back to me.

 

Found the actual ignition timing was hunting a bit but was down at 1-2 degrees.

I think this is partly because timing is pulled as intake temps rise its -3 at 50c which is what it is in the vid and I think the idle is controlled by spark advance. With an idle speed error of 400 (rpm I assume) its -9.5

 

If I'm understanding this correct thats a potential total of 12.5 degrees taken off the spark map at idle?

 

Let me see if I can add the vid.

 

Honestly, why is this site so trippy with youtube vids?

You'll have to click the link, I give up.

https://youtu.be/B82Z4WaU-KY

Edited July 19, 2016 by Danm54

[Danm54]

I've made some progress tonight, tried adjusting the throttle stop to control the idle and bring the timing back to normal but it didn't work, got it to 7-8 degrees but it didn't sound happy and was still running hot.

 

Went theough the ecu settings and found everything that that pulled the timing, so coolant temp, air intake temp and idle control. Set them all to 0 so the timing wasn't altered from the map.

Ran nicely and the coolant temp didn't shoot up as it had previously, idle was a little tricky but I have a bypass screw on the throttle body I could use if I need to.

Surprisingly the intake temp dropped by 5 degrees as well.

 

Let it cool off and it doesn't like starting from cold now but I'm sure I can work that out, there isn't a start up enrichment but I think I can use the coolant temp to give a little extra fuel untill its warm.

 

Which brings me on to another problem, the ecu reads the coolant temp some 15-20 degrees higher than it actually is, the clocks also read coolant temp and thats within a degree or 2.

Not checked the ecu readings at a lower temp but the higher end isn't right.

 

 

[Gixer1460]

I understand that Mega squirts are expecting to use GM sensors - if yours isn't then re-calibration will be required. You sure no cold start enrichment - its fairly fundamental to engine operation? 

[Danm54]

Apparently the bike went to Specialist Components to have the sensors calibrated and set in the ecu. I'm not sure if it did or not, its a fairly important sensor to set correctly and its quite a long way out. Especially as it has control of fuelling and ignition.

 

I can find cranking settings but no after start warm up settings, I think its set using the coolant as there's a multiplier for injector pulse width/coolant temp and also one for ignition timing/coolant temp.

 

There's a time after start before it allows correction but  you can turn closed loop on and off so I need to confirm whether its on or off.

 

This isn't something I expected to have to do so I'm back on a steep fuel injection learning curve!

[slingy1157]

Are the coolant sensors for the ecu and clocks in different locations on the engine so giving different readings? To some degree it dosnt matter that the ecu temp values dont match the engine temp in real life. They are just numbers on a screen to represent values used in the control algorithms. The fact you know the discrepancy exists means it can just be allowed for. Ie if you want warm up enrichment to finish at 70 deg C then set it to finnish at 90 deg c if thats what the ecu thinks is 70. Have you taken the sensor out of the engine and put it in like ice water, then boiling water while watching on the laptop to see if it is actually reading nere 0 and nere 100 deg C? This should be as nere a real representative as you can achieve in a controlled manor

[Danm54]

They're about 2-3" away from each other.

 

I'll check what temp it reads when I get back and see if the lower temps are closer. 

I'm sure I found something fuel related that changes with the coolant temp, maybe acceleration fuelling. I could fudge the numbers but its probably better to set the sensor correctly.

[Gixer1460]

Knew there was something for Starting - cold or otherwise........ https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/megasquirt-startup-tuning/

[Danm54]

Its not got the ms v3 any more, it stopped responding and nothing would bring it back. Went away from ms as they're just too trippy.

Its got a Specialist Components Typhoon ecu, good bit of kit actually.

 

Just got to get my head around how it works and what does what, its not that bad but its different to the ms layout and seems to work different.

[Gixer1460]

58 minutes ago, Danm54 said:

Its not got the ms v3 any more, it stopped responding and nothing would bring it back. Went away from ms as they're just too trippy.

Its got a Specialist Components Typhoon ecu, good bit of kit actually.

 

Just got to get my head around how it works and what does what, its not that bad but its different to the ms layout and seems to work different.

Just had a look and it's a shame they don't allow software downloads so you can play before you buy! You might be the only person using this so the learning curve just got Everest like! LOL!

[Danm54]

Yea I think they're a bit protective of it!

 

Put a little extra on the injector pulse up to .8% throttle opening, started good with a little tweak of the butterfly and the air bypass screw. Ran nicely up to temp and sounds better now its got some proper ignition timing. 

Started fine from hot too which its always struggled with.

 

Will put the original rad on and put the coolant hoses back as they were then try another test ride.