Project; Whizzy Pop Slingshot

[Blubber]

how is this going ?

[Danm54]

Slowly. Left it with John to sort out a controller for the 4.2 sensor but since the 4.9 upgrade they don't seem to be widely available. 

Only way is to upgrade to the 4.9 sensor and controller which I'm happy enough to wire in but decided I wasn't paying for it. Ive spent ~£70 for a new 4.2 sensor and I'm looking at double that for the 4.9 and controller.

 

John said he'd order one and we'd "sort something out" on how much I'd pay. They were on back order as of late last week though but John should get it early this week.

 

I've been stacked out for a few weeks so I've not had any spare time anyway. Could do with sorting it out now though.

[Danm54]

Still no lambda. Will call specialist components tomorrow and see whats going on.

 

Did manage to catch up on a couple of small bits. The butterfly bypass on the throttle body pulled air from atmosphere so made a barb to run it to the air box.

 

 

Used the outlet off my broken scottoiler for the air box connection, perfect fit and saved making one.

 

 

Once my barb was threaded it went in nicely. 

 

 

Actually made it the wrong way around as the thread should have been cut while it was still in the lathe.

I didn't have an M6 die though so took it round a mates to do. Left a couple of witness marks where it was clamped in his lathe but its ok.

 

I also turned the threaded part to exactly 6mm which I was dead impressed with but it threads easier if its .05mm down apparently and sure enough the od of the thread is 5.95mm. 

Still learning things!

[Danm54]

Heard from John yesterday morning, sensor was in and would be posted for delivery today.

 

Made sure I didn't book any work in so I could have an evening on the bike, early finish too which was perfect.

 

Got home to a card saying it had been taken to the "local" sorting office for collection tomorrow. Called there anyway because I really want this sensor. Won't be sorted until tomorrow.

I've not had a parcel taken there for as long as I've lived here, normally goes to the local PO for collection anytime the shop is open not 4 fucking miles away where it sits in a tray until they sort it for you to collect.

 

So I'm sitting doing nothing tonight then working tomorrow night and Friday night plus Saturday. 

 

Life decision has just been made, fuck the jobs on the side, I just want to ride bikes!

[Danm54]

Picked the lambda and controller up today.

 

 

Pretty big difference between this and what was fitted.

Pulled a later finish tonight so I've got tomorrow night free to fit it.

[Gixer1460]

That looks much like my Innovate LC-1 - see here.....http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

Hope this works out better for you, keep us up to date.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Gixer1460

[Danm54]

Its fitted and working, didn't take long.

 

Auto mapping is working and recommending changes to the fuel map.

 

Only had time for a couple of miles so I need a longer run and have a look at the data logs.

 

Progress at last!

[Danm54]

Was raining most of Saturday but I had a little shed time this afternoon and sorted a lean spot around 4k at 0 throttlewhich made it hang. It revs above there and drops to normal idle again.

 

Set the temp fuel map multiplier to 1 over 40 degrees instead of .78 and it starts from hot, warm etc so thats an improvement.

 

Pod today but a little run out this evening for a bit of data logging.

 

Got a good log of rpm, map, tps and lambda. Runs lean when returning to idle but sits around .8 - .9 lambda most of the time.

Kept it below 5k and off boost, seems to pull well but doesn't like holding a set rpm on the throttle and is jerky on overrun.

 

Few problem areas were corrected on the auto correct but I'll be keeping an eye on what it want to correct.

[Danm54]

Been thinking more on this and digging a bit more into the ecu settings. The auto mapping uses rpm/map so I can't see how it can accurately correct an rpm/tps fuel map.

 

Turned that off and ran it just on the wideband control and whilst the lambda stays at the target value the correction is all over the place. So to tune the fuel map I'd have to turn off the wideband control and run it just on the fuel map which I'm positive is too lean on a lot of places. Log some miles on that and correct the fuel map accordingly.

 

Decided its actually quite dificult to do this in the shed and on the road without the possibility of damage.

 

Decided a day on the dyno was in order and chose the home of the oss dyno day, rtr motorcycles. 

Got in next wednesday so I should come out with a decent tune this time.

[Gixer1460]

If 'auto mapping' used MAP corrections why are you using TPS for load on a Turbo bike? You must have MAP for turbo use so why not use it? Just reduce the correction limits to something like +15 / -5 so it never pulls too much fuel out and try it again whilst logging?

[Danm54]

Don't know, thats the way it came from John. Not sure if you can change tps to map or not.

 

There's a fuel table multiplier thats map based for the extra fuel needed on boost. 

 

There's also an acceleration fueling multiplier and I've no idea how that affects the auto mapping or how you'd go about setting it up. Thats if its actually needed at all but its currently set to add fuel.

 

Theres a lot of things I don't know about setting this up and the more I look the more questions I've got.

I figured I'd probably be able to make it work but there'd be parts of the setup I'd need done on a dyno to finish it off properly anyway so I may as well start on the dyno and make sure I'm starting in the right place.

 

The map/rpm fuel map for example may well be the best way so there's no point in me setting up a tps/rpm map.

[Gixer1460]

Thinking about things - there is no reason not to use TPS with auto correct to generate your baseline fuel map running NA? The correction numbers should be all over the place till the map gets dialed in. I am aware of people who have autotuned a blown set-up but IMO its too risky especially if boost fueling is on a compensation map as most of those have to be adjusted manually? If the fuel map reverted to RPM / MAP based then you could zero / turn off the compensation map and just rely on one fuel map with auto adjustment.

[Danm54]

I don't want to rely on auto adjustment long term really, the fuel map should be set up close enough to just use auto adjustment as a safety net.

 

I've looked over the 4 cylinder start map and the fuel map is the same as mine, just mines been lowered. I think John has used a generic base map and lowered it to suit the bike without tuning it.

 

The start map comes set for tps/rpm auto tune as well but I can't figure out how to change mine back to it or set up a new one.

 

The fuel map can be set to use map/rpm or map compensated tps/rpm but again I can't set up a new map.

 

Exactly right about the map multiplier, its set manually with no way to auto tune it.

You'd need a map/rpm fuel map and auto tune that using map/rpm.

I'd guess throttle response would be poor though.

 

[Danm54]

Loaded and ready, locked in the garage for the night ready to hook up in the morning.

 

[Danm54]

Dyno day started with a few pulls as it rolled up, 193bhp.

 

Went through the ecu with Dan and we sorted out what done what and what needed to be done.

Turned off the auto correct and off he went mapping, thankfully it was too rich all over so fuel was pulled. 

 

Coolant temps were creeping up which wasn't great to see, the rad just isn't big enough for the limited airflow in the dyno room.

 

The killer blow came when the monster can breather filled up and blew oil over Dans dyno. Big enough problem to finish the day.

 

But progress was made, I've got some honest feedback and I know what needs improving.

 

Got home and called Dave to talk catch tanks but was quickly advised that I shouldn't really be getting any oil out the breather and my power was still too low.

 

He's a brutally honest guy, basically your bores aren't right and you need to pull your engine apart. Stop fucking around and get on with it.

 

Pulled the cam cover off and checked the valve clearances again, all too small.

Dropped a camera down the plug holes and the bores are quite shiney...

Not the clearest pic but you get the idea.

 

So head and barrels off, check valves and seats, check pistons and dig out some spare barrels ready for a fresh rebore with possibly tighter clearances.

[Fula28]

Explains the heavy breathing Dan ,Good numbers now and she's climbing up there now At least , Progress indeed .

[Danm54]

WARNING, THIS POST CONTAINS PICTURES OF ENGINE COMPONENTS IN DESTRESS!!

 

Intake valves and piston tops are glazed heavily, I'm sure someone knows why this has happened but I can't be arsed to think it through now.

 

 

 

 

 

Moving onto the valves now, either get all the bad news out the way or find a positive...

[Danm54]

It appears the valves are only seating on one of the angles as well.

Certainly haven't got a big surface area to seat on.

 

 

[wombat258]

Piston failed by pre-ignition/detonation . . . caused by too much ignition timing, too much boost or too high compression ratio for boost/fuel octane. If it was overtheating the dyno run should have been aborted, as that raises the octane demand of the engine as well. Glazing is just excess oil from blowby when pistons failed. Valve seat looks fine, so do not stress about that. The boost/comp ratio/octane/timing needs to be sorted. The engine probably wanted to be rich to avoid eating itself, and when the tuner leaned it out the damage occured. My turbo 1100W does not puke oil out the breather - 4 race meetings and not a single drop in the tank. If I see oil in the puke tank on any of my engines I know to back off ignition timing. I run very conservative compression ratios for boost to avoid this sort of problem.

[Gixer1460]

Busa pistons? They need to be preped for turbo use - all those sharp and thin edges have to be removed / smoothed out or you get what you've experienced - sorry! As above re valve seats - the valve should only seat on one angle - the 45 degree one who's width is cut after the other two to get the correct width. Hard lesson unfortunately.

[Duckndive]

8 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

Busa pistons? They need to be preped for turbo use - all those sharp and thin edges have to be removed / smoothed out or you get what you've experienced - sorry! As above re valve seats - the valve should only seat on one angle - the 45 degree one who's width is cut after the other two to get the correct width. Hard lesson unfortunately.

Don't look like Busa pistons ..more like aftermarket that have had valve pockets machined deeper.....and as Ian said sharp and thin edges are a NO NO...

Still onwards and upwards Figs show promise..........Every  Days a Skool Day 

[Danm54]

Its target lambda was 8.5 when it came back from John and it achieved that with a lot of correction.

During the last dyno setup correction was turned off and the fuel map was even richer so it was pulled back but it was still richer than the 8.5 target it started with.

Think he aimed for 8.2 lambda or 12. something afr.

 

Comp ratio is 9.1:1 with 12psi.

 

Pistons are mtc turbo, dished and prepped by Roger Upperton, rebore and valves/head work also by him. I didn't really question or check anything. 

 

Have checked the bleed valve for the wastegate to see what psi it opens at as it was replaced and set by John, 2 bar didn't open it. Stopped there and had a play, the bolt was tightened right to the ball so it was never going to open.

 

The valves should seat on the outer angle then? These only seat on the middle one.

[Danm54]

2 minutes ago, Duckndive said:

Don't look like Busa pistons ..more like aftermarket that have had valve pockets machined deeper.....and as Ian said sharp and thin edges are a NO NO...

Still onwards and upwards Figs show promise..........Every  Days a Skool Day 

This is an expensive Skool Day!

[wombat258]

I run 9:1 on 11psi, with 98RON fuel. Target AFR is 11.9 at full boost. Higher boost requires lower AFR. Timing should not be over 28 degrees. Valves only seat on the 45 degree cut, with the other angles used to determine the seating width and flow characteristics. BTW WC's hate large overbores . . . very difficult to get head gasket seal . . . that is why I prefer 1118cc for turbo.

[Gixer1460]

9 hours ago, Danm54 said:

Its target lambda was 8.5 when it came back from John and it achieved that with a lot of correction. During the last dyno setup correction was turned off and the fuel map was even richer so it was pulled back but it was still richer than the 8.5 target it started with. Think he aimed for 8.2 lambda or 12. something afr.

Nowt wrong there although just using / aiming for AFR of 12:1 across the map isn't necessarily a good thing either.

Comp ratio is 9.1:1 with 12psi.

Again more than low enough - i've got 9.5:1 in the big motor that goes 2 bar +

Pistons are mtc turbo, dished and prepped by Roger Upperton, rebore and valves/head work also by him. I didn't really question or check anything. 

Roger should know better, some of the edges that are left are just too exposed - they get hot - they melt  - they smear the bores and then you lose the rings. Sorry on the Busa piston thing but seen it loads of times.

Have checked the bleed valve for the wastegate to see what psi it opens at as it was replaced and set by John, 2 bar didn't open it. Stopped there and had a play, the bolt was tightened right to the ball so it was never going to open.

NOT GOOD! You are aiming for sub 1 bar boost with a gate that will grenade the motor before it opens. Sorry its dyno 101 - you baseline at low boost and increase. If it wasn't popping off at 5 or 6psi .....warning bells should have been sounding - not your fault but operators IMO!

The valves should seat on the outer angle then? These only seat on the middle one.

NO - if its a 3 angle cut (that's what race cuts usually are & what Roger would usually do) there is an outer 30 deg cut, the middle 45 and an inner / throat cut at 60 degrees. the 30 and 60 blend chamber / throat into the seat angle @ 45 deg.

Hope that helps?