Project; Whizzy Pop Slingshot

[slingy1157]

Man you are a real trooper with this. You had those issues with the ms which can be a real tedious head fuck and kill heaps of hours to troubleshoot.

So you bite the bullet and pay for a "professional" install and tune but you seem to be right back in the thick of trouble shooting efi problems which seem to be mostly setup and tune related. 

I really feel for you. But, on the plus side. There is nothing like nutting out and understanding all the systems on your bike and you will be the Typhoon ECU Jedi master when done lol.

Always enjoy following your updates as they are a shared learning curve for us all. 

Keep at it mate, your having lots of little victories here even if it may not feel like at times. 

[Danm54]

Its certainly taking some hours, most of my evenings seem to be spent in the shed now.

 

When I picked the bike up he said 'its running lovely, you could ride it home'

Don't think I'd have got very far.

 

But thats what you get sometimes, I'm not happy with the amount I've paid for the tune I've got but its close enough for me to do some homework and finish it off.

Its actually not that complicated once you get into it, got to be easier than pulling carbs apart!

[busa ash]

good luck with the mot , sounds like your not far off now dan 

[Danm54]

Its passed the mot Ash, didn't make it back without breaking down though.

 

Once I'm on top of these heat issues I think it'll be ok.

[Leblowski]

Good luck mate hope you can sort your issues

[Danm54]

Finally made its first full trip!

Only 10 miles like but it went well, took a couple of tries before it fired up and seemed to hang a little dropping to idle for the first couple of miles.

Felt like it hit a dead spot about 9k rpm on some dual carriageway so backed it off a little, will need to see whats going on up there.

 

Temp wise it was ok, sits about 60c doing 60mph and 70c doing 30mph. Sat at the lights I've normally stopped at (behind a police car) and the temp rose to 85c but it wasn't an issue.

Highest temp I seen was 95c as I pulled up but thats after a 30mph stretch plus a couple of junctions/lights etc.

 

Dropped a tooth on the front sprocket as 30mph was horrible to sit at, bought it to a nicer rpm in 2nd but the engine stutters there a bit, I've upped the fuelling a touch up to 2400rpm so it may need a little more at higher rpm and low throttle openings.

 

Will see if I can understand the data log.

 

In all I'm happy, definitely making progress.

[Danm54]

Made it back home fine too, went a slightly longer way back. Temp sat around 70c on the way back.

 

Looked at the data logs and the lambda just flatlines the whole way through so definately a problem there, I've got a spare sensor that I'll drop in and see if it actually moves.

 

Until thats sorted I don't want to ride too far, I need to know how its running in its stumbling spots.

[Danm54]

Managed a few evenings on this between work and sorting the other bike for holiday.

 

The lambda was actually reading 1.3 lambda which is a full 5v. Tried a spare sensor but it read the same.

Called Specialist Components and he said its unusual for a lambda to fail reading 5v, they usually fail reading somewhere in the middle. It could be the controller that has failed though but check the wiring first.

 

Checked it out and its wired correct so I've ordered another sensor. Not sure on the chances of 2 controllers failing putting out 5v but its the only thing left to try.

 

The data logger is and old one and they don't have any memory on the newest ecu for it, its just always been there on the older ones.

It works to a point but they are working on a setup to log to an sd card which will be more reliable.

 

Had a good chat with him and I did mention that since looking at some wiring info I'd noticed mine didn't have a permanent 12v off the battery, its wired with the permanent 12v and the switched live on the starter circuit so it kills the ecu as soon as you turn off the ignition.

 

Its not an issue unless you map with the engine running, the ecu saves changes when the ignition is turned off but obviously mine won't do that.

I will be altering that as its just going to be a pain in the future.

 

Not likely to get much done on this before we head off but I'd like to get the lambda working so its ready for some mapping when we get back.

[Danm54]

New lambda fitted and permanent 12v off the battery sorted.

Lambda still reads 5v...

 

Fucked off now, I seem to be throwing money and time at this and getting nowhere.  

[Gixer1460]

1 hour ago, Danm54 said:

New lambda fitted and permanent 12v off the battery sorted.

Lambda still reads 5v...

Fucked off now, I seem to be throwing money and time at this and getting nowhere.  

Sounds like an issue with the Lambda controller - I think the Innovate controllers have a diagnostic function to test the sensors but obviously if its the controller thats fubar'd you are in the dark whatever!

[Danm54]

This is wired direct to the ecu, there's no external controller.

I've not seen any test or diagnostic function though.

[Gixer1460]

51 minutes ago, Danm54 said:

This is wired direct to the ecu, there's no external controller.

I've not seen any test or diagnostic function though.

As you have that Tornado ecu, I can't look at the software or the schematics so don't know if it has an internal controller but it would be unusual ie even Motecs rely on standalone controllers and just take the output like any other sensor. This is a wideband lambda? otherwise if it was narrow band ie 1, 2, 3 or 4 wire then it wouldn't have a controller as it generates its own voltage from 0 - 1v only though!

Edited July 31, 2016 by Gixer1460

[Danm54]

It does list it as having a wideband controller.

I guess if thats gone up it then the ecu needs to go back.

I can't easily get to the wiring when the fuel tank is on but is it possible to measure the output voltage from the loom?

[wombat258]

Is it always reading lean lambda? Have you tested it with butane lighter? If you do not light the lighter and only direct the gas into the oxygen sensor it should read rich.

[Danm54]

Not done that but I'll give it a go tomorrow.

 

The carbon in the exhaust would say it isn't that lean all the time but it'll prove whether the gauge does move or not.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Danm54

[Gixer1460]

12 hours ago, Danm54 said:

It does list it as having a wideband controller.

I guess if thats gone up it then the ecu needs to go back.

Not seeing that in their blurb! It says narrow or wideband CONTROL ie. of fueling, not how the sensor works. You must have a wiring diagram for fitting it - even if you didn't fit it? A copy / look at that would confirm?

[Danm54]

Ahh, maybe it doesn't then. 

It came back from John wired direct to the ecu so I'd assumed that would be correct.

 

You can download the pinout list from their site, there's also an install file for the tuning software too plus some base maps and a few other bits.

 

The pinout list says lambda1 0-5v analogue input.

The lambda wiring says 0-5v linear output for connection to ecu/gauge/datalogger.

 

Will call them again and see if they come up with anything else.

[Gixer1460]

Did some digging and downloaded / installed the SX Tuner software that had a manual attached and found this.....

" Closed loop fuelling control is provided by using either a narrowband lambda sensor connected directly to the ECU lambda input or by using a wideband sensor connected via an external wideband sensor controller with a 0-5V analogue output. Narrowband sensor control can only be used to target exhaust lambda of 1.00 (AFR 14:7 with petrol/gasoline), normally for exhaust emissions reduction using a three-way catalytic converter. Wideband sensor control can be used to target any air-fuel ratio and also for tuning. SC recommends that wideband control is not left turned on permanently, but only used as a tuning tool. Wideband sensors and controllers are not generally reliable enough to use for long periods of time and a faulty sensor could give incorrect feedback into the ECU and cause the engine to run dangerously lean, resulting in engine failure. Once the engine has been correctly calibrated there is no need to continue using wideband lambda sensor control."

So without seeing the actual install I can't see if a controller has been installed but it should be fairly obvious ...... see this.... 

Hope this helps not hinders?

[Danm54]

Just called them and their plugs have a controller built in. I think the sensor is standard but the plug that wires into the ecu side has a built in controller.

 

I don't think the plug on mine has that controller built in. 

 

 

Thats the specialist components 4.9 sensor with the controller ready to wire direct to the ecu.

The sensor and its plug look standard but the bit in the black heat shrink on the grey wire I think is the controller.

Mine is just a standard plug and grey wire.

[Danm54]

Spoke to John earlier to see if he could remember what plug was wired in and more importantly if it was a Specialist Components one.

There's nothing lambda related on the list of parts that were fitted to the bike but he's sure the plug had a controller in it.

 

There is a good chunk of heatshrink on it admittedly but its only hiding wires, I'm assuming I'd be able to see something else if there was a controller in there too.

 

[Gixer1460]

I can't speculate but any wideband controller i've seen are either in a box about the size of a packet of fags, one's like the Innovate one above or built into a read-out gauge. They are fairly complicated electronics to heat and keep the sensor at a constant temperature, do the comparison between gas sampled and its baseline, and then change a millivolt output and scale it up to something between 0 and 5v!. The company response would worry me unfortunately as they can't be sure?

[wombat258]

Agree. Controller box should be obvious. The heater currents are quite high. If your sensor does not get bloody hot out in the air stream it does not have a controller. I use a TechEdge WBO2 controller. It has a separate 0-5V output connected to the Microsquirt lambda input.

[Danm54]

Little update while I have a bit of free time.

Matt at SC confirmed there is no controller on my plug, their controllers are in the heatshrink but this isn't one of theirs. John is sure that the one he fitted did have a controller but this is the same plug and wiring as it came back with.

 

Obviously the easy thing would be to get a plug and controller for the 4.2 lambda but SC have stopped using them now as they've upgraded to the 4.9 lambda.

They don't have any 4.2 plugs left.

 

The 4.9 plug and controller with a 4.9 lambda sensor is £105 which wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't already spent ~£70 on a new 4.2 lambda sensor.

 

I'm away touring on the gsxr now so when I get back I'll give John a call and see if he's got a 4.2 controller. 

Or maybe he'd like to buy a nearly new 4.2 lambda sensor that I don't have any use for now...

 

 

[Fula28]

John should bloody, give you a 4.9 mate tbh!!!!  

[Danm54]

Didn't want to assume he would sort it out mate, I know he should do but its not always the way it works out. 

 

I'll see what he says when I get back home.