EFE in the cave

[Chocksaway]

Hi everyone, I've had a peek around on here before, but now I'm back, for a whole heap of help please !

I had bikes throughout my teens and into my 20s, but that got cut short one night when some pikey made off with my bike. That left a real bad taste in my mouth for bikes and I turned my back for a good while. 

A few years back I got brave and went looking for a new steed, something I could love, not just ride. I chose an '84 GSX1100E (If you don't say EFE everyone thinks it's an earlier GSX) as a rideable project. That sort of worked out, but it was barely rideable at all, it was awful....

The back end is too high, the front end too low, the geometry is all wrong and it's really a proper heap.

I want to get to a point where I can take this bike out with a decent chance of survival, it doesn't need to be fast, it just needs to play to my rules.

I haven't really identified the bits that have been changed, but pretty sure the forks and wheels are Bandit 1200, possibly the swing arm too, or GSXR.

It ran reasonably well, but a bit weak on one cylinder it seemed. The engine I can sort, but I need help with this mismatch of other bits.

The Bandit forks seems o short that I doubt they'll ever work. I even considered making a stepped top yoke to raise the front end, but that'd hardly be classed as rigid ! It seems a fork change is inevitable and I had thought GSXR1100 forks from mid 90s, any pointers? 

The back end I really need to strip to see what's there and get some dimensions, but again, any suggestions welcome. Whatever that swing arm is gives a longer wheelbase than standard, quite a nice look and well proportioned. Long, but not drag race long.

I'll take some pics of the wreckage this weekend and await your verdicts....

Cheers

Rog

[Dorkburger]

Its a good looker IMO. That header collector looks crazy low though. 

[nlovien]

nice place to start though  - I wouldn't be concerned ref: stepped top yoke - you can gain maybe 25 to 30mm - the majority of the loads are taken by the bottom yoke, the top it kinda just holds it all together - the rear swing arm rake looks ok  - you could reduce ti a few degree via changing the tie rod length - assuming you have the right springs ? - with you on the bike - aim for 25 -30% of total travel as your starting point

but it does look low

[Chocksaway]

Blimey, that was quick response !

Yeah, it looks good in pics, but get close and it's dog awful. Really.

I was getting round to discussing exhausts. I certainly need more ground clearance in the collector department. After this pic was taken I ditched the tail end and fitted a standard Bandit can, which actually looked the part, and wasn't a fraction as loud as the crap I took off.

But again, I need to change for something better. I like the way Marving do theirs, flat collector rather than two over two. I don't mind sticking with a Bandit can or something similar, I don't want to go ultra modern and spoil the 80s look.

I've considered fabbing up a manifold from titanium, just to get away from corrosion issues, plus I'm not that keen on chrome anyway.

I don't mind doing some work, just not spending money as this bike is a secondary project.

One criteria for getting it back on the road is it's in my office at work and taking up space !

Rog

 

[Swiss Toni]

Lot of potential there. Do it up, and keep it. They're getting quite hard to get hold of!

[Chocksaway]

Last on the road about 6 years ago, it turned a few heads then due to rarity. Now that I've slowed up a bit I think it'll be safe for me to venture out and not take up on the first challenge and get myself into trouble. I'm not 21 any more !

At some point it will absorb more money than I'd like it to, probably an amount I'll never see back, but that's not the point, I want it sorted and reliable as well as rideable.

I've been teaching a mate's son to ride his first bike, an Aprilia RS4 50, what a machine! and that's kind of inspired me to have another go with the GSX.

One thing at a time I know, might address the exhaust first and at least get it running again. Then move onto lowering the back end, then forks, then lights, then wiring........

What have I started? !!!

Rog

[Jonboy]

Dont restrict yourself to Suzuki running gear, there are lots of different forks out there that do a wonderful job and have a longer stanchion to start with. I have  ****a VFR running gear on The GSish 

[Rene EFE]

Welcome, bikes looks very good 

Reading the first post strikes me as very interesting because I've got pretty much the same setup (albeit oilcooled motor) and it's VERY good in the turns.

If I was you, I'd measure the angle of the swingarm as it does seem a bit steep and compare this to others. Longer dogbones should suss out a great deal of the problem.

The forks should easily be up to the job as a Bandit and an unfaired EFE are relatively the same weight. Your exhaust does seem a tad low though, which doesn't help.

[Dezza]

Nice bike. Expanding on what Rene says, what exactly is the problem with your bike? Also, what is the current set up regarding the suspension and tyres? There may be a way to solve your problem by making changes to your existing set up without making any radical changes. Your bike does not have any unusal mods on it but without knowing exactly what the problems are it is difficult to suggest solutions.

[Gpz1100_Convert]

for handling on the efe simplest way to make a stab is to ensure the lower frame rail is level. The bandit fronts are usual long enough so best solution may be to lower the rear.

Mark

[dixiethedog]

Handling woes or not, what a great looking bike. Good luck with it. 

[Rene EFE]

36 minutes ago, Gpz1100_Convert said:

for handling on the efe simplest way to make a stab is to ensure the lower frame rail is level. The bandit fronts are usual long enough so best solution may be to lower the rear.

Mark

I've got a 750 usd in my aircooled one so I can't believe the Bandit forks would be too short. 

[Chocksaway]

Guys, thanks for all the interest, welcomes, and comments. Much appreciated.

Swiss Toni; Yes mate, intention is to keep it if I can, and more importantly, get it right.

Jonboy; Hearing what you're saying, but I want an all Suzuki parts bin effort. I would almost consider Hodna, but certainly not Kamakazi or the piano makers !Same measurement on mine is 665mm, quite a difference !

Rene; Thanks for the welcome. Rear is definitely too high, I'll start by seeing if I can just make longer links to get the height right, but I think ALL the rear shock geometry is wrong. Likewise, I never tried a front tyre swap.

Dezza; It feels like riding a road drill, too hard a ride. Initiation of a lean into a corner starts ok, but suddenly gets to a point where it feels like the front is going to tuck in and wash out with a resultant low side. And I mean bad, I've ridden some bad handling bikes, but this is nasty. Back in the day, I rode on Metzeler comp Ks ME33 front, ME1 or ME99A rear. It's got a Metz on the back and a Battlaxe on the front. I think out of psychological support I need to get a match up of Metz on the front too.

GPZ110 Convert; I thought about the same as a rough guide. Hence why I think my snout is down and arse up. I'll drop the arse first as it seems easiest, then look at the front.

Inspite of pretty pics, the whole thing really is rough. Everything has been messed with, nothing is right, and it all needs sorting. Everything...  Looking at it tonight, I'm going to chuck the old pipe back on and get it running. At least then I can squirt it around the trading estate and experiment.

Thanks for your help and suggestions to date chaps, very reassuring to know there's knowledge out there to be tapped.

Cheers

Roger

[Chocksaway]

Basic measurements/specs taken tonight;

Front tyre 120/70 17

Rear tyre 180/55 17

Front axle height 295mm

Rear axle height 310mm

Swing arm pivot height (no load) 405mm

Fork angle (no load) 64 degrees

How does that compare with anyone elses?

 

Rog

[Rene EFE]

I'll dig mine out tomorrow (if ot stays dry) and do the same.

Can you make a pic of the shocklinkage side-on? The harsh ride could mean geometry on the rear is wrong, as you stated. I think I know what it will look like, but need a picture of it to be sure.

This is how mine sits; swingarm is now slightly further away because of 5mm longer dogbones but the angle of the linkage is the same. The flatter it sits, the more it will stiffen up, upto a point where it goes solid.

[Chocksaway]

Rene, thanks chap, much appreciated.

I've got a bit of work to do today, but I'll try and squeeze in a bit of GSX time too.

Digging around in a box of bits I found a standard EFE shock, so I'll compare with the unknown that's in currently, for length.

If it's shorter, and will go in, that might also correct the geometry to some extent, but I really want to get a handle on what's wrong and in what direction. If needs be I can make up and adjustable mount on the frame and adjustable dog bones to allow some fine tuning, once I've established the area of dimensions I need to be in.

I'll take a side on pic, but really want to strip it in stages, take measurements and plot the pivot points on CAD to see what's going on. "Give me a lever and I'll move the world" kinda stuff !

 

Roger

[Swiss Toni]

If that shock's come from your 'bits' box, it's probably buggered, along with the one that's already in there! Bite the bullet, and go for a Hagon shock.

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Swiss Toni

[Chocksaway]

Swiss Toni, I have no doubt the shock is buggered! Just like the bugger of an exhaust, it's just to try geometry, not to run with. Hagon will no doubt be what I end up with, certainly no need for top end Ohlins or anything for what I'll ever be doing with it.

[Chocksaway]

Saturday report;

I've had a bit of a look round it to start figuring things out. From what I can see, the rear wheel is not on the centre line, by 6-8mm. (I'm just setting some box section up along the frame to check exactly) Although I checked the tracking of front to rear years ago, I had stupidly made the presumption that who ever messed around before me had spaced the wheel correctly. Lesson learned, treat everything as wrong until it can be proven right.

I've wound all the preload off the rear shock, and whilst it doesn't seem to have lowered it, the geometry doesn't look out of place.

I think I need to correct the rear wheel and get it back running so I can ride it see what's going on.

Roger

[Duckndive]

The rear end looks like GSXR 1100 or 750..the 750 being about 30mm shorter .....

I notice that it looks like it still has the stock air box....If so that will compromise the top shock mount location.....

a pic of the linkage with out side panel on would help..as we like pics..........

Edited September 16, 2017 by Duckndive

[Chocksaway]

Duckndive; Do you have overall lengths for 1100/750 as I'd like to identify what bits have been used? I'm not worried about the airbox at the moment, if it needs modding in due course then that will be addressed as a separate entity.

 

Wheel alignment check was not as easy as hoped due to finding out that the frame tapers slightly, hence the box sectioned clamped on also tapered. However, it seems the wheel is of centre to the right by 5-6mm and the rear sprocket is out of line to the left from the front sprocket by about 4-5mm.

So, the plan is to strip the battery box, airbox and anything else out that's in the way, and take a wire from the centre of the headstock to the back axle and centralise it within the frame. This will give me a centre line of the wheel on the axle and dictate what I've got to do to centralise the wheel.

Once the wheel is centred, I can come back to sprocket alignment and sort that. If I remember correctly, the original tyre would have been a 150 ? so I have to cater for an extra 15mm of tyre towards the chain straight away. Is it wise to think about offset front sprockets, or does that overload the output bearing ? (bearing in mind I'll only be pussyfooting this bike around !)

I'm finding so many things are wrong, bodged or just plain crap, that ultimately the whole thing will have to come to bits and be built back up again.

Cheers

Rog

[Chocksaway]

And another point... The god-awful home made torque arm for the rear caliper is mounted on a bolt to the frame. Is it best to mount this way but remake the torque arm and mount it properly with a bush etc. or, mount it to the swing arm to induce a bit of brake squat?

Suggestions please...

Rog

[Chocksaway]

As for rear height, the geometry doesn't look too bad, I think slightly longer dog bones would get me where I need to be.

I'll try to sort the oil cooler and see about fitting the old header pipes back on tomorrow. Might have a start up next weekend !

Rog

[Duckndive]

Sorry I sold the 750 arm I had sometime ago ....Del is the oracle on parts ...

They look to have used all GSXR parts with the exception of the bottom link which is blandit... this on its own is compromising the set up..it looks like the shock will rub the link when the suspension unloads...

Ok in my opinion ..the top shock mount is a bit low and the bottom link mount to high this in turn puts the geometry of the blandit lower link out of kilter hence it being very stiff....

it would improve to some degree with the correct btm link ....

1st pic shows the correct bottom link....

 

2nd pic is top shock mount on same bike...

 

[Captain Chaos]

GSX-R 750L/M swingarm 520mm spindle to spindle (with the adjusters in the most forward position)