Running on two...again!

[Sheep]

Well,so much for getting bike of the month,the bloody thing is back in the shed lol...

Anyhoo,since owning the bike and rebuilding it from a new frame up i have had this inconsistent problem with it misfiring on one or more cylinders...i have had it running well recently after doing 200 miles or so out and about playing with the carbs....i think i have got those pretty much close to good as far as a shed mechanic can get them but this bloody problem with it misfiring is doing my nut in.It has ran poorly on and off like this since i have rebuilt it but i thought all was ok now....The other day however i went to go out on it and when i started it on slight choke it struggled a little but it did start.I thought the choke had wetted spark plug #1 but i still went out.It was apparent it was running on 3 cylinders but it went pretty good for a triple.After a couple of miles it was apparent the plug wasn't going to play ball so i came home and parked it up.Last night i checked the carb synch again just in case..all good..Today i bought a new set of spark plugs and fitted them.They were DR8's however for ET's etc if i read it right but these were the type of plugs that have always been in this engine and not the quoted D9EA's.They never had any of these on their antiquated shelf.

So,new plugs,new Taylor leads and Dyna coils,all should be good..nope.It ran on 2 cylinders one minute,1 the next.Nothing was consistent.I put plugs in that were old,nearly new and the new ones to see if anything changed...Could i have bought a set of duds???(The base of the ceramic was a little furry..its a local shop for local people)...Eventually i did get it running consistently on 2 and 3...aha...the coil i hear you shout..well,when i pulled off the leads to 1 and 4 they both jumped a long spark to the cam cover and when i returned them to the plugs the exhaust would give one little 'putt' but would not sound or run as i would have expected.At least it did not sound like a had giving the bike another cylinder to power it anyway!!!!

I would be pissed if the coil/s were breaking down as they are one of the better bits i got with the bike when i bought it but since having the bike all the trick bits seem to be crap and i seem to be replacing them all with new bits one by one!!!

Another thing,although the leads to 1 and 4 did jump a spark nothing happened to the engine note when i disconnected the wires feeding that coil

I also noticed 1 and 4 carbs were not sucking as hard as the other two.I feared something bad but a compression check revealed 145psi across all four...at least that's good news..

 

Just to add...during the test i did blow a fuse..any thoughts...plugs which were not firing were getting wet with fuel,not soaked,just wet.Downpipes to 1 and 4 were getting almost too warm to touch,not cold,but the good cylinders were damn hot ;)....coils breaking or spark blowing out....hmmm

 

Can anyone shed some light into why this EFE isn't playing ball?I would pull my hair out if i had any lol....

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sheep

[Captain Chaos]

to really rule out the ignition bit, swap coils + leads + plugs from 1&4 with 2&3.

[fatblokeonbandit]

Fit a pair of bog standard coils from a gsxr or bandit and eliminate the dyna stuff, ive had 2 sets of second hand ones over the years and both failed sooner or later, 2 duff cylinders same coil,,,

[Sheep]

I have no spare coils to try ( unless i rob them off my other bike lol) but may get some anyway.....As for swapping them over,i tried that earlier on in the build (suspect carbs,cdi,pick-up yadda yadda) and it didn't make a lot of difference then but i will try it again to rule it out...

Btw,i have replaced the pick ups with known good ones,new Taylor leads,god knows how many plugs lol....i understand cdi's work or they don't...the coils are the only thing i have not replaced.

Just to give you some more info....it smokes (unburnt fuel?) when revved,pops from the exhaust every so often,very vibey frame/motor

[KATANAMANGLER]

I have a standard set of coils and leads I  can send you for diagnostics if you want.

Check the feeds from the ignition pick ups to the CDI for continuity too.

[Sheep]

Cheers Katanamangler,i may take you up on that....i will try to do a coil switcheroo today if i get time.....i will get the multimeter out too and check for resistance...i hate electrics lol

[Sheep]

Just popped into the shed to do a check with the multimeter before leaving for the day..I am not totally clued up on electrical test equipment but this is what i did...

Meter set on 200 ohm setting

Left coil,disconnected from loom and between low side,ignition off,i got a reading of 03.3 ohms

Right coil,disconnected from loom and between low side,ignition off,i got a reading of 03.3 ohms

 

Meter set on 20k ohms

Left coil,between plug caps 1 & 4,ignition off,i got a reading of 18.4

Right coil,between plug caps 2 & 3,ignition off,i got a reading of 14.9

 

(With the meter set at anything less than 20k i couldn't get a reading)

[Blubber]

From memory:

On the old forum, bike with similar problems and head butting : turned out to be loosely fitted OEM connector.

The one from the pick-up towards the ignitor box... a white 4 pin connector box worked itself loose - but not fully. - might be a long shot but easy to locate.

Kinda what @KATANAMANGLER said.. only lengthier 

[Dezza]

I have recently had a similar problem. Bike was running only on 3 cylinders. My coils all checked out OK like yours and the problem did not move when coils were moved round, and the plugs and leads were all fine. I thought it was carbs but these were spotless. In the end I took the loom off the bike and replaced all the connections associated with the ignition system. I also re-soldered joins and removed uneccessary joins and replaced with single wires where possible. After doing this the bike produced a noticeably better spark than before and run OK on 4. What can be difficult is obtaining connector blocks to replace those that fit directly into the stock Suzuki CDI box and fuse box. I found that if you order a 4,6 and an 8, the male part of the connectors below fit directly into the standard Suzuki electrical parts. You can then stick with the stock CDI unit and high quality stock fuse box and bin your 30 year old knackered wiring. Towzatronics (Eblag) are a great supplier of mini-connectors and Vehicle Wiring Products do a massive range of wiring colours, much better than Eblag sellers so you can match your original loom colours. Also, on the efe it is best to bin the electrical fault warning box as this can play up and cause weird electrical faults. I can supply instructions on how to do this if need be.

Eblag number:

 

151430793986

[Sheep]

Cheers guys,i will give the loom a going over.If i remember rightly the connector you mention Blubber/Dezza used to be a little green until i gave it a little clean up..maybe it needs looking at again.It can't hurt....

Do those readings i took seem ok then?

[Dezza]

Yes, your readings are very similar to those I get. I use ZZR1100 coils and Taylor leads. Kawasaki coils have a threaded retainer so you can easily interchange HT leads and they are 3 ohm, same as Suzuki GSX1100.

[Sheep]

Just had a thought....when i tidied up the loom and removed various unwanted wires i fitted many 'Superseal' connectors at various location to give it a better look and to aid future maintenance.Both coils have their own respective connectors so i can remove the coils for whatever reason simply and quickly but would these be a cause for concern???

I am thinking maybe i should solder them directly to the loom as they once were..maybe i am clutching at straws (or wires)..

[strima]

With your loom it's best to have as few joints/connectors as possible, less to fail.

[matt]

Hi, I just rebuilt my loom with superseal connectors, had a lot of problems with making sure the pins were fully located in the housings. If they don't click in properly, when you push the connectors together you can end up pushing the pins out the other side and not getting a proper connection. I ended up changing some of the superseal connectors for the standard block connectors.

[Dezza]

Sheep, I have just re-read your post and noticed your compression readings. Have you checked your valve clearances? The reason I ask is when I had similar problems to you I also did a compression test and got readings between 150 and 162. According to the manual 140 is a bit low, assuming you have a stock motor. It could be a combination of factors giving you your poor running.

[nightrider]

On 5/19/2016 at 3:51 PM, KATANAMANGLER said:

Check the feeds from the ignition pick ups to the CDI for continuity too.

This has been the culprit in a few of my issues with similar symptoms.

Exterior signal line actually touching manifold in one circumstance. Bad connectors in the others

[Sheep]

Cheers Dezza....i did check the clearances before i put her on the road.The motor has a few miles on her,maybe a few that haven't been logged too but i am planning to go bigger bore next winter,funds allowing....

Last night i soldered the connectors going into the CDI from the pick up.I would go out today but ive done a long day at work so maybe i will check the pick up wires and re-do the coil feed wires tommorow....

Loving the avatar nightrider

[Sheep]

Ok so tonight i went into the shed and did the following..

I checked the wiring from the pick ups with a meter and visually..all ok.I did move the pick ups a tiny amount their mounting holes would let me towards the rotor,not sure if it will make any difference.I cleaned the connector blocks and soldered all the terminals too.

I then removed the Superseal connectors to the coils and hard wired them back to the loom.

I removed the coils and cleaned inside the ht holes.Coil 1/4 was noticeably less shiny than the other one.I also re-crimped and shaped the brass crimps on the leads so they would go all the way into the coil which i don't think they did before.

I then started the bike and it immediately ran on 2/3/4....with some irregular popping from the exhaust and an occasional orange flame when revved up.I checked #1 and the plug was wet...i tried another plug,it too became wet,no spark perhaps.I pulled it out,earthed it and it did spark...not a fat blue one but it was definitely continuous whereas it used to be intermittent.I picked up a known dry plug which came with the bike when i bought it and tried that.Now we have all four firing...no pops or flames....this is where i left it as i was getting gassed in th shed lol

So,perhaps it is sorted...i am not jumping the gun until i try it tomorrow at a more sociably time of day...i will keep you posted

[Bigkenxx]

Just to add the best things I ever bought were spark testers that fit between spark plug and ht lead , laser tools do them for about a tenner they have saved me loads of time messing around I had 2 issues with my efe the first one was the Dynas need a good voltage to run and mine wasn't getting enough voltage so I upgraded the wiring and had the ignition on its own circuit and earth and that cured it the 2 nd problem and this is why the ht testers come in handy I would get a misfire when out riding so I fitted the testers and when it misfired I looked down to check which cylinder ruling out everything bar the plug it ended up being the fuel tap not feeding enough fuel , just go through It methodically as the more you change the more you lose the way. Good luck fella 

[Sheep]

That's the trouble when you try a host of things....if you do fix the issue you wont be sure exactly which one did the trick....i may be happy if it is fixed,or at least better,but i would still like to know how for future issues if any.

I did check for voltage from the battery too and i got a good 12.7 at rest with a 14.7 when running...i only checked it because i thought it was 'bubbling' inside quite a lot.!!

[Sheep]

Ahhh bollocks.......it was good while it lasted.

It seems a defo problem with coil 1/4 because today i tried another ht lead and plug which i know to be good and it didn't spark at first.I did get it to spark out of the head and onto the casing but there was no pattern to it...Coil 2/3 keeps on going like a duracell battery....Just out of curiosity what sort of earths do Efe's normally have as standard.The reason i ask is i only have the black and white return  from the loom to the battery and a cable from the engine to the battery.Should there be any more from factory even though i may fit extras anyway.

[strima]

Check the coil mountings are clean and free of paint/corrosion etc.  The HT side should have a good earth path from the coil to the engine, even if you run a temp in to see if that helps.

[Sheep]

Ok...i welded on bosses to mount the coils to the frame.Maybe there isn't a good earth between the engine and frame and battery and frame too ???

 

[Captain Chaos]

Some Yamahaha's (early R1 and FZR1000 for example) have the coils mounted in plastic, no earth on the frame.

[Gixer1460]

Just got off the bone with a M8 having similar problems and has just taken the bike apart, chasing all the wire connections, plugs etc and cleaned and checked everything, carbs checked, coils checked, plug caps and leads all with no effect - still pissy weak pathetic sparks. Swopped out the 'new' plugs that have probably done less than 200 miles for some old ones that were well past their best and it fired up clean as you like on 4 cyls when it wouldn't run at all! I haven't seen the plugs but suspect Chinky Fakes - sometimes cheap is TOO cheap! These came from a Dealer which is worrying if fakes are in the mainstream supply chain!