GSX1100 engine builds.

[imago]

I have two ET/EX/Kat engines to build and I've just done the gasket and seal shopping. Just the consumables, no fancy bits or components as fortunately I already have those. I also have one new cam chain and tensioner so only had to order one each of those. A grand, one thousand pounds, for seals and gaskets.

Add on cleaning, vapour blasting, painting/polishing, cams, big bore, crank building, studs, labour etc and air cooled engine builds are at the point where they're only viable for the dedicated fan with deep pockets. 

[Swiss Toni]

Soon mounts up! I've got an 1170 to start!

[imago]

9 minutes ago, Swiss Toni said:

Soon mounts up! I've got an 1170 to start!

You don't notice it as much when you're buying stuff here and there. When you have to get it all in one hit the old bloke's cry of "How fuckin' much?!" goes up. 

Cams are a fierce bloody price now too I notice, there's only the reprofiled Kent cams that are anything like sensible money even if they are exchange and 493 rods are £250 each. 

[Toecutter]

All very pricey now. Were those prices at trade or full wack? 

Just done a cbx1000 motor, full rebuild. That was very expensive too.

[imago]

2 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

All very pricey now. Were those prices at trade or full wack? 

Just done a cbx1000 motor, full rebuild. That was very expensive too.

It's very difficult, in fact virtually impossible, to get trade prices on air cooled stuff now. There aren't many manufacturers and suppliers which means they sort have a monopoly, then add on that no one (including me) is buying it very often and there isn't really any wriggle room for them to give discount.

Some from CMSNL and some from SPS/Grumpy, you just have to check their sites to see how it works out price wise. I don't really use Robinsons much now as I find CMS have more NOS stuff and even with them being inside the EU it works out a bit cheaper. Inlet rubbers for example are currently cheaper at CMS than any of the others, but next month it might be cheaper to get them from SPS.

My intention at the moment is to build the three engines I need for bikes, one to keep two to sell. The rest of the engine parts will then get run through the vapour blaster and sold on as there's quite a lot of stuff sitting there which isn't doing me or anyone else any good.

[Duckndive]

CMSL have a habit of advertising parts they don't actually have in stock... 

EF cams are a cheaper upgrade  than road / track cams...

Rods dept on how many beans you aim on making ..

As much as i love air cooled motors the rebuild costs are silly now....

[BillyR]

Ive been lucky enough to be able to hang on to a lot of stuff over the years, even got some bits i had off Bill hunter, Cannon etc etc, but as stated even the gaskets and bits and pieces are eating up the most of the budget. They have cost me more than having the seat rails chopped and the headstock raked.

Need to take a holiday to the states and send myself a pallet of 'scrap'. 

[Arttu]

Are you trying to say that some other engines are significantly cheaper to rebuild? As far as I know it's usually damn expensive to rebuild any 4-cylinder bike engine... And when it comes to over 30 years old stuff the costs can easily expand if you want to make them like a new. There will be numerous little extra things to sort out and some of them can be very time and effort consuming, like cleaning and painting the parts. If you outsource those as paid work the costs will naturally skyrocket.

But yes, there are some things that are more expensive on these aircooled GSXs. Crank work is the main thing that comes to my mind. Pretty much everything else is more or less the same than with other engines. And some parts are starting to get hard to find but again I guess it's pretty much the same for everything at the same age.

[imago]

1 hour ago, Arttu said:

Are you trying to say that some other engines are significantly cheaper to rebuild? As far as I know it's usually damn expensive to rebuild any 4-cylinder bike engine... And when it comes to over 30 years old stuff the costs can easily expand if you want to make them like a new. There will be numerous little extra things to sort out and some of them can be very time and effort consuming, like cleaning and painting the parts. If you outsource those as paid work the costs will naturally skyrocket.

But yes, there are some things that are more expensive on these aircooled GSXs. Crank work is the main thing that comes to my mind. Pretty much everything else is more or less the same than with other engines. And some parts are starting to get hard to find but again I guess it's pretty much the same for everything at the same age.

Age has a lot to do with it no doubt, as you come forward in time the rebuild costs get cheaper. All the gaskets etc to rebuild a B12 for example will cost you 30% less than an air cooled engine, and the engines themselves SH can be had for 1/3 of the cost of an air cooled.

It's just market forces, but knowing that doesn't soften the blow any.

[imago]

5 hours ago, Duckndive said:

CMSL have a habit of advertising parts they don't actually have in stock... 

I don't know if there's been a recent change in management or something, but CMS have been really good over the last few months. Really rapid delivery, costs generally lower than Robinsons, no stock issues.

[Nigkat]

14 hours ago, imago said:

You don't notice it as much when you're buying stuff here and there. When you have to get it all in one hit the old bloke's cry of "How fuckin' much?!" goes up. 

Cams are a fierce bloody price now too I notice, there's only the reprofiled Kent cams that are anything like sensible money even if they are exchange and 493 rods are £250 each. 

In the process of rebuilding my kat motor after oil pump failed and fried the top end.  Are there any issues when using reprofiled cams? Tempted as they're less than half the price of new billet. 

[Dezza]

Robinsons used to have seemingly random discounts on bits like valve stem seals but that seems to have stopped . Many parts are shared between models and you can get lucky by searching the part number on eb@y. E.g. the (ridiculously expensive from Suzuki) O'rings that go in the head gasket of slabbies are also used on DRZ400s (or similar, I can't remember precisely) so when listed as for a less desirable model they are often relatively cheap.

[imago]

7 hours ago, Nigkat said:

In the process of rebuilding my kat motor after oil pump failed and fried the top end.  Are there any issues when using reprofiled cams? Tempted as they're less than half the price of new billet. 

With the usual caveat "as long as they're done properly" then no, cams from Kent for example are as good as OE.

Aftermarket cams tend to be better quality than the originals and the manufacturers aren't interested in exchange which is why they're more expensive. They also offer a wider range of profiles as they start with blank cams and grind them to suit rather than the more restrictive option of reprofiling an existing cam.

[Arttu]

13 hours ago, imago said:

Age has a lot to do with it no doubt, as you come forward in time the rebuild costs get cheaper. All the gaskets etc to rebuild a B12 for example will cost you 30% less than an air cooled engine, and the engines themselves SH can be had for 1/3 of the cost of an air cooled.

It's just market forces, but knowing that doesn't soften the blow any.

I'm sure you know parts prices better than me. But I just haven't noticed any consistent difference in prices of new parts between the GSX and other engines. For example complete gasket kits from some random shop:

• B12 - 239€ https://www.3pracing.com/en/centauro-complete-gasket-kit-933a988fl-suzuki-gsf-1200-bandit-1996-2006.html
• GSX1100 - 135€ https://www.3pracing.com/en/centauro-complete-gasket-kit-933a983fl-suzuki-gs-1000-1982-gs-1100-1980-1981-gsx-1100-1980-1981.html

Prices and availability of used parts and engines can naturally vary way more. And you are right that globally air cooled GSX stuff is more expensive than many others. I think their still active race usage is driving up the prices. But for example here in Finland oil cooled 1100/1200 engines are pretty expensive too, about the same than air cooled ones if not even more expensive.

[Blower1]

9 hours ago, Nigkat said:

In the process of rebuilding my kat motor after oil pump failed and fried the top end.  Are there any issues when using reprofiled cams? Tempted as they're less than half the price of new billet. 

If you use new or good used rockers, with reground cams, there will be no problems.

I have SPS/Kent Cams regrinded cams in one of my EFE and Camshaft Works (Finnish company) regrinded cams in my oil cooled EFE although both have used rockers and no problems so far.

[imago]

18 minutes ago, Arttu said:

I'm sure you know parts prices better than me. But I just haven't noticed any consistent difference in prices of new parts between the GSX and other engines. For example complete gasket kits from some random shop:

• B12 - 239€ https://www.3pracing.com/en/centauro-complete-gasket-kit-933a988fl-suzuki-gsf-1200-bandit-1996-2006.html
• GSX1100 - 135€ https://www.3pracing.com/en/centauro-complete-gasket-kit-933a983fl-suzuki-gs-1000-1982-gs-1100-1980-1981-gsx-1100-1980-1981.html

Prices and availability of used parts and engines can naturally vary way more. And you are right that globally air cooled GSX stuff is more expensive than many others. I think their still active race usage is driving up the prices. But for example here in Finland oil cooled 1100/1200 engines are pretty expensive too, about the same than air cooled ones if not even more expensive.

There's a lot of regional variation at play, but in the UK I can reverse those prices for decent quality pattern sets. Another big difference is that for the air cooled engine you have to add on OE crank and gearbox seals as they don't come with the kits, but they are included in the B12 kits. Second hand price wise you can buy two decent/running B12 engines for the price of an unknown GSX.

It's not a cheap exercise to rebuild any engine now though. As @Dezzasaid, it's all the little bits and bobs which add up, especially when you have to buy things like valve stem seals twice as none of the ones included in aftermarket kits seem good quality.