"High flow" GSX 750 oil pump gears

[Ådne95]

Hi! Currently in hospital after a crash, waiting operations so no access to the garage for a few weeks/months.
(Several complicated fractures in a foot, and amputated big toe... I wore proper boots (alpinestars smx V2), without them doctors say I'd probably lost the whole front part of my foot. Wear your motorcycle boots folks!)

Well, to the question:  My situation means plenty of time to look for parts online, and I stumbled upon a local parts listing with what seems to be the "high flow" 750 oil pump gears for my EFE engine. Can anyone confirm from the pictures this is 16331-45000 (pump) and 16321-45002 (clutch/drive gear) ? 
I counted the teeth on pictures, and looks correct - 29t on the pump and 38t on the one behind the clutch.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Ådne95
Typo

[slayer61]

The pump is the same from 750-GSX11/EFE. If the gears have the number you're after you are GTG Sir.  

[Swiss Toni]

@fatblokeonbanditwill confirm. 

[Ådne95]

Thanks guys! Looks like I'll be able to make a good deal here 

[Captain Chaos]

2 hours ago, Swiss Toni said:

@fatblokeonbanditwill confirm. 

What? FBOB in the aircooled section?

[Swiss Toni]

He’s everywhere!

[fatblokeonbandit]

Not me shipmates, I know bugger all about air cooled stuff

[imago]

You can also get higher ratio gears than the 750 has to get oil round highly tuned and turbo motors. @clairetoohas more info on them. 

[Ådne95]

10 hours ago, imago said:

You can also get higher ratio gears than the 750 has to get oil round highly tuned and turbo motors. @clairetoohas more info on them. 

Good to know!  But no need for the moment, I'm just planning on a moderate power increase; EFI, performance cam without compromising rideability and maybe some bigger valves

[Gixer1460]

11 hours ago, imago said:

You can also get higher ratio gears than the 750 has to get oil round highly tuned and turbo motors. @clairetoohas more info on them. 

I'd like to see some of these 'mythical' higher ratio gears?  Its just that for the 40 odd years that drag racers have been abusing these engines with just about every modification anyone could think of, no one nor none of the specialist aftermarket vendors bothered with having hi ratio gears made . . . . . Even Chris Hannam, owner of Cannon Engineering, who were gear cutters to industry and beyond, never considered making them and cornering the global market! 

[clairetoo]

1 hour ago, Gixer1460 said:

I'd like to see some of these 'mythical' higher ratio gears?  Its just that for the 40 odd years that drag racers have been abusing these engines with just about every modification anyone could think of, no one nor none of the specialist aftermarket vendors bothered with having hi ratio gears made . . . . . Even Chris Hannam, owner of Cannon Engineering, who were gear cutters to industry and beyond, never considered making them and cornering the global market! 

I had a set of these higher ratio gears made by Chris Hannon (yes , he did make some a good few years ago)........had a small quality issue with them , so decided to get my own made !

Edited October 11, 2023 by clairetoo

[Reinhoud]

I've done some experimenting with different gear ratio's and wider oil pumps.

As soon as the engine is at operating temperature, there's aboslutely f*ck all of oil pressure., no matter what gear ratio or how wide the pump is.

Keep in mind, the pressure is mostly determent by the resistance in the oil channels, or how big the holes at the ends are. As long as that's not changed you hardly win anything.

 

Assuming we're talking about a rollerbearing engine, don't worry about is, there's nothing in the engine what needs pressure, as long as it's lubricated you should be fine.

 

 

[Gixer1460]

21 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

Assuming we're talking about a rollerbearing engine, don't worry about is, there's nothing in the engine what needs pressure, as long as it's lubricated you should be fine.

Not quite true - cams are all plain bearings and are furthest away from pump plus those running turbo's which have plain bearings need approx 25-30psi minimum for any sort of life! We've all seen cam bearings wiped out through low / no oil! Its one of the reasons drag racers used to block off oil feed to gearbox, just to get that little bit more to the engine - gearbox happy with splash lubrication.

[imago]

30 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

IAssuming we're talking about a rollerbearing engine, don't worry about is, there's nothing in the engine what needs pressure, as long as it's lubricated you should be fine.

If that were the case Suzuki could have saved themselves a lot of money. 

Aside from the line bored cam journals and rocker faces, you need pressure to get the oil from the sump to the top of the engine, sufficient pressure to feed the roller mains through the drillings, both ends of the rods, enough pressure to shift a sufficient volume through the turbo (roller or not) and also to push a volume through the oil cooler. Even the head of oil in the drillings and galleries requires pressure to move it through at the required rate and all of that becomes more important as the temperature of the oil increases which is when the viscosity and pressure reduces.

I would suggest that decent oil pressure and volume moved around an engine in any state of tune above stock is not only needed but absolutely essential.

So I'll be fitting these higher ratio than 750 gears to take care of all the above. 

[Gixer1460]

A picture of a mythical object LOL! If my counting teeth is about right, I get 39 / 27 ratio ? against a 750 ratio of 38 / 29. If so, the oil pump should spin about 10% faster?

Will it make 10% more pressure ? 10% more of knob all is still knob all LOL!

Edited October 16, 2023 by Gixer1460

[imago]

Oh, and just in case anyone is actually interested in how it works rather than reading bollocks, 10% increase in speed equals a 10% increase in flow. It doesn't result in a 10% increase in pressure because pressure is the square of speed, so you get 21% increase in pressure.

In other words by using the gears as shown you get an increased flow volume of 10% at a 21% higher pressure than stock. Greater heat transfer, increased protection.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Captain Chaos

[imago]

17 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

Oh good!

If you were half as smart as you think you are you'd pick up knowledge from others with far greater experience and specific knowledge as Ihave done re these gears.

Instead you like to talk a good job but that's where it ends as evidenced (yet again) by you typing utter bollocks and demonstrating you don't even have a basic idea of fluid dynamics and pump operation, but plough on parading your ignorance for all to see.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Captain Chaos

[slayer61]

1 hour ago, imago said:

In other words by using the gears as shown you get an increased flow volume of 10% at a 21% higher pressure than stock. Greater heat transfer, increased protection.

Keep in mind, I'm a numpty old electrician... and not a hydrodynamicist or anything educated... but does increased flow & pressure ALWAYS equate to greater heat xfer?

 

IOW can the oil get to flowing so fast across the hot surface that there isn't sufficient time to absorb the heat?

[imago]

9 hours ago, slayer61 said:

Keep in mind, I'm a numpty old electrician... and not a hydrodynamicist or anything educated... but does increased flow & pressure ALWAYS equate to greater heat xfer?

 

IOW can the oil get to flowing so fast across the hot surface that there isn't sufficient time to absorb the heat?

Pressure doesn't have much effect on heat transfer (unless you go so high it generates heat) but flow does. Heat always transfers from the hot thing to the cooler thing, so the more cool thing that comes into contact with the hot thing the more heat is transferred. From hot metal to oil, from hot oil to air. When you fit an oil cooler you're providing a bigger surface area for the air to make contact with.

Yes it can move that fast, but you're talking about insanely high pressures and volumes, hydraulic systems running at hundreds of bar. To counteract that you usually increase the surface area that the oil contacts.

[Reinhoud]

On 10/16/2023 at 9:33 PM, Gixer1460 said:

Not quite true - cams are all plain bearings and are furthest away from pump plus those running turbo's which have plain bearings need approx 25-30psi minimum for any sort of life! We've all seen cam bearings wiped out through low / no oil! Its one of the reasons drag racers used to block off oil feed to gearbox, just to get that little bit more to the engine - gearbox happy with splash lubrication.

That's what I thought too, but then, the GS/GSX engines have not even 1 psi pressure, the camshafts do fine on that, as long as there's oil in a steady supply it's alright..

 

Turbo is a different story, apparently..

Edited October 19, 2023 by Reinhoud

[imago]

1 hour ago, Reinhoud said:

Turbo is a different story, apparently..

It's not really a different story, it's just that there's more heat to deal with because increasing the power output also increases the waste heat generated.

As the heat increases in the oil it becomes less effective. So if you increase the amount of oil going round the system to compensate for the increased heat it has to deal with you can keep things more or less where they should be.

Ultimately it's an additional £160 to add the extra flow and pressure. Given the time and money involved in the engine build and turbo that spend seems a reasonable addition for the protection it provides (IMHO).

[DAZ]

It seems that many parts used in a "performance" build aren't strictly needed but are used because of the extra safety margin they provide and as @imagosays are generally a small price to pay for that peace of mind ,and especially on stuff that's 40 years old and getting rarer and more expensive to find . £160 for the gears vs cost of a turbo rebuild because the bearings are shot is cheap insurance

Edited October 19, 2023 by DAZ
Addition

[Reinhoud]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:54 PM, imago said:

It's not really a different story, it's just that there's more heat to deal with because increasing the power output also increases the waste heat generated.

As the heat increases in the oil it becomes less effective. So if you increase the amount of oil going round the system to compensate for the increased heat it has to deal with you can keep things more or less where they should be.

Ultimately it's an additional £160 to add the extra flow and pressure. Given the time and money involved in the engine build and turbo that spend seems a reasonable addition for the protection it provides (IMHO).

You won't get more pressure! More flow probably, but the pressure wil not rise noticable.

Make a reduction in the oil galley to the gearbox is also a trick.

Extra heat you'll fix with an oil cooler.

[Reinhoud]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:42 PM, DAZ said:

It seems that many parts used in a "performance" build aren't strictly needed but are used because of the extra safety margin they provide and as @imagosays are generally a small price to pay for that peace of mind ,and especially on stuff that's 40 years old and getting rarer and more expensive to find . £160 for the gears vs cost of a turbo rebuild because the bearings are shot is cheap insurance

Depends on the turbo, but recon kits for a turbo aren't expensive..

A rebuild kit for mine is actually half of what a set of those sprockets will set you back.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Reinhoud

[imago]

31 minutes ago, Reinhoud said:

You won't get more pressure! More flow probably, but the pressure wil not rise noticable.

Make a reduction in the oil galley to the gearbox is also a trick.

Extra heat you'll fix with an oil cooler.

Dear god. Right, last time I'm posting anything on this because the determination of some people to confuse what they think the laws of physics should be with what they actually are is just plain tiresome.

PRESSURE AND FLOW VOLUME ARE BOTH FUNCTIONS OF A PUMPS ROTATIONAL SPEED. INCREASE THE ROTATIONAL SPEED OF A PUMP WITH NO OTHER CHANGES AND BOTH THE PRESSURE AND VOLUME INCREASE.

It's not my fault as I didn't write the laws of physic, fluid flow dynamics or pump design. I don't give a flying fuck if you think the modification is worth doing because you didn't do it because that's an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no matter how much you like your opinion it has no effect on facts.