GS1100 Race Oiling

[rich46]

I need the forums advice.  As I've said we're building a pair of GS1100's  (1982) to be raced in Vintage Road Races.  I've been trying to research the oiling systems for these motorbikes and have gone as far as even looking at vintage photographs to get an Idea as to the extent and configurations.  I've searched the web blah, blah, blah . 

My problem is the information I have gathered is a " wee bit conflicting "  Do I use a cam oiler or no some say that you must or the cams go bad, then again others tell me that will only lower the oil pressure.  Others have told me that all the race teams of that era only ran larger oil coolers and isolated the oil cooler systems from engine heat.

So I'm inclined to use a quality oil cooler, protected  (heat) cooler lines and heat wrapped headers (again to control heat to the cooler) and that should be fine.

Engines for Road Races tend to not be at the extra high state of tune that a short course Classic Superbike engine would be if that is of help.

Any advise you give would be great help.

Cheers

[Arttu]

Just to confirm, I assume you are talking about 16 valve GS1100, known as GSX1100 in Europe?

Problem with the top end oiling kits for these engines is that they alter the oil circuit in various ways. Depending on other parts that you use you may end hurting oil flow to some parts of the engine. So if you are going to fit one you really should figure out what it really does and how it affects to oil circulation of the whole engine.

In my opinion the cases where top end oiling kit is needed or beneficial are:

• Big bore cylinders that take out original oil passages on bottom surface of the block.
• HD cylinder studs that restrict oil flow around the studs to the head. And I'm not completely sure how real this scenario is, I haven't measured how much area there is left around the HD studs.
• High lift cams and stiff valve springs. I have been told that in this case additional oil flow will increase lifetime of the cams and rockers. Again, I'm not sure what is the point where you need more oil flow and if an external oiling kit is needed to get enough flow.

One useful mod would be "high flow" oil pump gears, which means gears from GS750. They increase oil flow by 30% which should help lubrication of all engine parts.

Oil cooler is definitely a good idea. I would also recommend some oil temp gauge so you can get an idea how well your cooler is working and if you need any improvements for the cooling.

[rich46]

Arttu,  Thank you so much this is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.  Most of the folks that I'd talked to so far were going to benefit from me wanting to install one of these systems (because they're selling it to me)  I had had one of these (GSX1100) years ago and I rode it rather  hmmmm  aggressively   with just an additional cooler.  After looking at diagrams of the oiling system I had began worrying about using the cam oilers and lowering oil pressure to the entire engine.

I had also noticed that the motorbikes raced by Cooley and Greame only had large oil coolers and nothing else.  As our engines are not on turbos, aren't using high lift cams nor ultra high compression it had me wondering if this was just added bling that was going to not work well doing the kind of events that had almost 38 mile laps .

Thanks again for the info and your time.

Rich

[clairetoo]

A major benefit of using a top end oiler kit is , if done properly then oil leaks from the head gasket will be pretty much non existent - as in , you need to block off the oilways in the top case and the feed holes in the head , so all the oil comes in from the top end oiler hoses .

And definately fit some high output pump gears - I use some that give a 40% increase , along with a large-bore top end oiler kit , and have no problems running up to 12000rpm with big cams and suitably heavy valve springs .

[downtheshed]

38 mile lap sounds like the IOM, 

[rich46]

Arttu,  Thank you so much this is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.  Most of the folks that I'd talked to so far were going to benefit from me wanting to install one of these systems (because they're selling it to me)  I had had one of these (GSX1100) years ago and I rode it rather  hmmmm. Aggressively   

[rich46]

Is true. It was the IOM I was referring to.  Not the TT but the Manx.  One of my riders has like almost fifty IOM starts if you count both two wheel and three wheels.

The  motorbike I built for him to ride a few years ago was put together to do sprint vintage races here in the states.  Engine made really great power and that may be the crux of my error for the IOM.  Everything was too highly tuned for the amount of stress that kind of event entailed.  The engines I'm putting in the bikes I building now are more akin to an endurance engine.  They do need to make HP but I'll keep it more down to earth this time/  

[Arttu]

9 hours ago, rich46 said:

Arttu,  Thank you so much this is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.  Most of the folks that I'd talked to so far were going to benefit from me wanting to install one of these systems (because they're selling it to me)  I had had one of these (GSX1100) years ago and I rode it rather  hmmmm. Aggressively   

Since it sounds that you are doing some serious stuff there I would recommend spending some time with oil circuit diagrams and actual engine parts to clarify for yourself how the lubrication system really works. After that it would be much easier to filter all the info that you get from various sources and understand how different modifications affect to the system. I have noticed that there is plenty of less accurate or even miss leading info circulating around this topic.

Usually all the commercial "upgrade" parts serve some purpose but they might be intended for some very specific setup and using them on some other setup may lead to disaster. For example there are variants of the top end oiling kit that take all the oil flow from the pump to the head. Idea there is to feed oil to the crank backwards from the head through the head stud channels. Combine this with above mentioned "dry block" mod and you may get some trouble...

[Gixer1460]

Quote

For example there are variants of the top end oiling kit that take all the oil flow from the pump to the head. Idea there is to feed oil to the crank backwards from the head through the head stud channels.

Haven't heard of that one - can see how it may work, but a bit too sketchy for reliability IMO!

[Reinhoud]

On 10/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, rich46 said:

I need the forums advice.  As I've said we're building a pair of GS1100's  (1982) to be raced in Vintage Road Races.  I've been trying to research the oiling systems for these motorbikes and have gone as far as even looking at vintage photographs to get an Idea as to the extent and configurations.  I've searched the web blah, blah, blah . 

My problem is the information I have gathered is a " wee bit conflicting "  Do I use a cam oiler or no some say that you must or the cams go bad, then again others tell me that will only lower the oil pressure.  Others have told me that all the race teams of that era only ran larger oil coolers and isolated the oil cooler systems from engine heat.

So I'm inclined to use a quality oil cooler, protected  (heat) cooler lines and heat wrapped headers (again to control heat to the cooler) and that should be fine.

Engines for Road Races tend to not be at the extra high state of tune that a short course Classic Superbike engine would be if that is of help.

Any advise you give would be great help.

Cheers

Oil pressure is set by the smallest diameter in the system, if that doesn't change the rest can be as big you want.

You don't need cam oileres, you can drill up the stud holes.

But when the stock studs are used top end oilers aren't useful

[Reinhoud]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:55 AM, clairetoo said:

A major benefit of using a top end oiler kit is , if done properly then oil leaks from the head gasket will be pretty much non existent - as in , you need to block off the oilways in the top case and the feed holes in the head , so all the oil comes in from the top end oiler hoses .

And definately fit some high output pump gears - I use some that give a 40% increase , along with a large-bore top end oiler kit , and have no problems running up to 12000rpm with big cams and suitably heavy valve springs .

The oil still get there via the head into the stud bores.

[rich46]

OK,  So after going over what everyone has been telling me and all the OEM oil flow diagrams here's what I think  (please keep in mind I've never worked with this engine before)  1st.  I understand that there are different oil pump gears (GS750  still trying to find out the proper year) that will increase oil flow and pressure.  2nd.  If I can find a couple of old  EFE oil filters covers I'll use those as they shunt the oil flow thru the cooler far better.  If I can't find the EFE filter covers then it looks as if I can restrict the flow a wee bit with a plug in the cooler line add by drilling said plug with a small hole that will some supply to pass thru.  I'll will use a good quality cooler 13 or 16 row with -8 lines.  From what I can gather we are in no way over stressing these engines.  Most of the exotic oiling  systems are more for engines that are way over bored (1300+ cc) or have high compression ratios (13/14 : 1) have pumps and run on fuel.  As we are not using high lift cams,or any of the other super HP tricks and where engine life is the most important issue I thinking this will be a proper way to go as far as the oil flow in our race engines ? ? ? .

[slayer61]

Rich please let me know if you find a couple of EFE filters here stateside. I've been looking & scrounging Eblag for a while, with no luck.

[no class]

another option perhaps ....you can try contacting Trevor Birrell Racing for some info ? There was a post on here a while ago about thre TBR Katana .... that road race machine made 180hp and 140ft lbs .... quite an achievement for an old tech machine .

[Arttu]

An EFE filter cover isn't that big deal for oil cooler. You can achieve the same pretty easily by making a plug for oil feed passage under the filter cover. But either one of these is needed to get oil going through the cooler.

[Dorkburger]

Not 100 percent sure, but I think the 750 gears you want are 80-82. The non roller crank bearing 16 valve  engine. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Dorkburger

[rich46]

Arttu,  I have heard the same as far as using a drilled plug.  What I'm being told that by drilling a .25mm hole in the plug accomplish about the same thing.

So do you know anything about using GS750 (year ? ) oil pumps  to get higher pressures thus getting more oil up to the heads ?  My old Superbike wrench from the '70's and '80's said that I should also remember that the oils of today are far superior to what his guys used and their engines survived.  That was the good news he also said that they also swapped engines and went thru them every weekend but today every part is better and the treatments to things like cranks is also much improved.  So I guess all I can really do is just go with I think will work and hope.  

If we can be allowed into the UK next season I suspect that I'll be trying to put together a spare engine  just in case.

Cheers  

[Arttu]

Size of the hole in the plug isn't that critical. Its only purpose is to provide a backup route for oil if the cooler gets blocked for some reason. Any way, 0.25mm is quite small   I think channel on the EFE cover is equal to 3-5mm hole.

For oil pump gears you can use gears from 77-82 GS/GSX750. Part numbers are:

• 1633145000, pump gear, 29 teeth

• 1632145002, clutch shaft gear, 38 teeth

Original gears are 33/34 teeth. So the 750 gears result 27% increase on pump speed and flow. Oil pressure will increase as well but it's kind of secondary thing on these engines. Roller bearings on the crank let the oil flow through pretty easily so the pressure is always low and varies a lot depending on oil temp and viscosity. But in any case, the pump gear upgrade should provide a substantial increase on oil flow to the head.

The gears are also available as aftermarket performance parts. As far as I know these are usually re-packed 750 gears from Suzuki but there might be exceptions as well since the original Suzuki parts are getting rare.

https://www.suzukiperformancespares.co.uk/product/suzuki-gs1000-hi-volume-oil-pump-gears/706/

I don't have any first hand experience about this kind racing with these engines so I can't say what would be the critical points to make the engine survive or what kind lifetime you can expect on some power level. But generally one very important thing on these engines is to get the crank built properly. These pressed roller bearing cranks are somewhat tricky to build. There aren't too many engine shops that are even willing to touch them and based on what I have heard even the reputable shops may sometimes slip out less perfect work. So finding a trustworthy crank builder would be pretty important.

[Reinhoud]

You can forget about to get a higher pressure, I tried that. It's all about flow.

With 750 gears the pump spins faster, you can make a restrictor in the oil "line" what goes to the gearbox.

[Captain Chaos]

2 hours ago, Arttu said:

the 750 gears result 27% increase on pump speed and flow. Oil pressure will increase as well

I was told in school that higher flow = lower pressure

[Gixer1460]

1 hour ago, Captain Chaos said:

I was told in school that higher flow = lower pressure

That is true - on the back side of the restriction. Upto the point of restriction the pressure will be higher as you are trying to pass an increased volume through a given sized hole in the same time.

This is where I have a problem with the H/D studs causing a restriction up the block theory. The gallery feeding oil into the 'stud risers' is metered at the bottom via a jet, the orifice of which is tiny in comparison to the gap between a HD stud and the block stud bore. There should be better oil supply in terms of speed of delivery from start up (not a bad thing) due to reduced volume to fill, but with either stud size, once the void is full of oil, delivery pressure will equalise until the next restriction which is the cam bearing journal. So, in my experience, I haven't seen any increased wear or damage cause purely through use of larger studs and i'm happy to use them in extreme type build engines and if I want more flow I will use external lines!

[Captain Chaos]

5 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

That is true - on the back side of the restriction. Upto the point of restriction the pressure will be higher as you are trying to pass an increased volume through a given sized hole in the same time.

yeah that makes sence. It's been 25 years since I learned all this stuff in school and never used all this knowledge since. I might have forgotten a thing or two

[clairetoo]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:46 AM, Reinhoud said:

The oil still get there via the head into the stud bores.

Not on my engines - I plug the oilways in the top case , and the heads , so no pressure on the head gasket - I also run larger bore oil hoses direct from the ends of the oil gallery to the head , higher ratio (than 750 gears) pump gears , restricters on the cam bearing oil feeds - all to get maximum oil flow to the rockers and help my cams to live........

[Gixer1460]

1 hour ago, clairetoo said:

 higher ratio (than 750 gears) pump gears , restricters on the cam bearing oil feeds - all to get maximum oil flow to the rockers and help my cams to live........

Care to enlighten us as I've never heard of anyone using anything other than 750 gears even PS engines? Restriction to cam bearings seems daft - saving a cam or rocker at expense of destroying a fully worked cylinder head - bizarre!

[Reinhoud]

2 hours ago, clairetoo said:

Not on my engines - I plug the oilways in the top case , and the heads , so no pressure on the head gasket - I also run larger bore oil hoses direct from the ends of the oil gallery to the head , higher ratio (than 750 gears) pump gears , restricters on the cam bearing oil feeds - all to get maximum oil flow to the rockers and help my cams to live........

You managed to fill the oil holes on an angle in the heads?