I have a dream

[Rene EFE]

Winterseason is closing in soon and that means we all are getting ready to build the bikes we have in our head, to use for next year. I always go a bit off the chart with this, with 5 bikes on my mind and maybe one actually coming out of the shed finished. 

For this year, I hope it will be different; have the 2nd oilcooled EF tourer to finish (possible turbo-ed), need to freshen up the Banana, 1st oilcooled EF needs a frontend rebuild, 1135 EF needs a gearbox and the 2 other Slingshots will receive racefairings and the neccecary mods to go on track; it's all pretty straight-forward.

However, over time and especially sitting in a hedge during the TT and hearing the racebikes hanging in the tractioncontrol, I've gotten very intrigued by current modernday motorcycle electronics and I'm thinking how/if it is possible to get this to work on one of our bikes.

You see, with @Arttuas our resident EFI wizard and being up close with @Leblowskiand @bruteforce's EFI-turbo bikes and @Jelly's in the works, this all got me thinking if it would be possible to take it a step further (or a fair few if you will)

To me, all it should be is;

-Well-working EFI
-Front and rearwheel speed
-Throttleposition
-Leanangle (Gyrometer)

Getting this right would give me;

-Traction control
-Wheelie control
-Launch control
-Whatever else we can think of

All this stuff is currently used on every superbike you can buy in the shop and the stuff gets cleverer and faster every year, surely you should be able to lift all of this and basically strap it to a Slingie, get it dailed in "a bit" and you have one older motorcycle with all the fancy rideraids you can get on the current modern stuff.

Am I making it sound easier than it will be, or do you think I'm onto something? Answers below

[Blubber]

Looks feasible to me.

Have never looked at aftermarket traction control, so using OEM stuff is definitely an option. Even from different brands. It is "just" about getting the correct signals to the ECU. 

I was always taught almost anything is possible especially if your pockets are deep (enough) 

 

Biggest issue I can see is your time frame...purely based on my project experience.  

 

[Rene EFE]

I know for a fact that all those on the current big bikes, are sourced parts, only adjusted to suit the bike. Basically Valeo, Bosch or Sachs (among others) will have all the parts to make it work on anything (I think)

[Rene EFE]

5 minutes ago, Blubber said:

Biggest issue I can see is your time frame...purely based on my project experience.  

I don't do deadlines anymore. I will try and have a bike ready to go so I will never NEED to finish something under pressure of time. Also, technically, this is something thaat can be built without the actual bike there

[Sandman]

One option is to buy a stand alone system like GripOne TC. We have tested this system on a CBR1000RR Superbike during this race season. But it is not easy to fit this system to an old slingshot or a slabby.

[Rene EFE]

I had to google that, but that seems exactly what I mean. In what way was this system better than the stock system?

[Arttu]

Many aftermarket engine management systems can do some kind traction control. Typical solution is to read both wheel speeds and then reduce power if there is too much difference. The same concept works also as wheelie control as front wheel speed starts fall behind rear if it's in the air. So if you do EFI conversion with some system that is capable enough you can probably get quite far without too much trouble.

However, more sophisticated result you want more efforts are needed. And there are several limitations with this basic concept.

One problem is power control. On typical aftermarket EFI setup this works by controlling ignition timing and boost (if applicable). But there are limitations what you can do with these. Boost control is somewhat slow to react even in the best case. And with NA engine this obviously doesn't help at all. Ignition control can react quickly response on power output can be quite non-linear on some engines. So as result power control may not be as smooth and accurate as you would ultimately hope. Modern factory bikes rely heavily on drive-by-wire electronic throttle control as it allows precise and quick power adjustment. Naturally it's possible to fit such system also on old bikes but it adds another degree of complexity to the project.

Second problem is detecting all possible problem cases early enough. Wheel speed comparison method should detect wheel slip and most likely also wheelies nicely when you are on move and going relatively straight. But when talking about quick jump ups from standstill or subtle wheel slip while leaning at maximum angle things get more complicated. For those you may need additional sensors like gyroscopes, accelerometers and suspension travel sensors. And first of all, more complex control algorithms.

And even if you get all this installed on your bike it will be probably pretty significant effort to get everything tuned to work on this particular bike. And by significant I mean something that may take months for professional engineering team. 

I have to admit that I haven't played much with traction control by my self. So I can't speak from first hand experience. But if I were you I would do this piece by piece. So starting with something that is most likely doable with reasonable effort and not worrying too much about the ultimate solution. In practice, start with EFI conversion by using some ECU that can do this basic traction control. Get it working, play with parameters, see how that works in real life and how far you can get with it. Should keep you busy next few years Then when you have found limits of that concept you can decide if you need something more. At that point you will have much better idea what you really need. If you try to do everything at first go changes are that you won't ever get anything running on road...

[Rene EFE]

This is exactly my thinking (apart fro it taking years  ) It will be for a trackbike, so the limits will be more in reach and it will basically be safer to get to those limits.

[TLRS]

Fuel injection is main stream for a good 2 decades now. When racebikes still spend days on the dyno to get the fuelling spot on, I'd stick with getting that sorted first! And resort to 'analogue' traction control for the time being. Avoid massive surplus of power for the speed with appropriate gearing, predictable power (curve) at various throttle openings, make most of tires, suspension and chassis. Get good feedback from the bars and seat of the bike.. stuff like that.

[Rene EFE]

Making what I have better, is really not the point. I'm on the limit of what the bike can do and I'm not getting stuck in doing stuff that every man before me has already done. I know EFI can be made to work flawlessly on these things and it's pretty much plug and play with 0 dynotime, I just want to figure out if it's possible and what I will need to push the envelope a bit. 

I'd be using very late model suspension, wheels, brakes, etc, to mimmick the modern bike more easily and basically "fool" the computers to think they're on the bike they were originally intended for.

[KATANAMANGLER]

Just get a bigger engine in and stop poofing about.

[Rene EFE]

I was on a 750 in the Over-750 class and not near the slowest, I'm quite ok  

[Rene EFE]

Tbh, the engine used for this will be a bigbore 749 so pushing or over 900cc

[KATANAMANGLER]

1 hour ago, Rene EFE said:

I was on a 750 in the Over-750 class and not near the slowest, I'm quite ok  

So the only thing holding you back was more power. I rest my case.

[no class]

All this new tech traction control / braking  etc etc takes away the thrill of riding  ... I prefered watching  the old moto gp bikes coming into a curve hard on the brakes and almost out of control .... throwing down the knee and accelerating hard while exiting the turn slightly broadside.....leaving a long strip of rubber behind !  Now it's all about a second faster without the excitement of a bike and rider on the edge 

[Captain Chaos]

12 minutes ago, no class said:

All this new tech traction control / braking  etc etc takes away the thrill of riding

this x10

[Rene EFE]

Let's agree to disagree

[Guest YoshiJohnny]

Marquez has it ALL turned on and is still spinning the wheel at full lean... if you watch though he is nailed to the stop exiting the corner and the front wheel never comes up more than an inch... he knows the headstock isn't gonna smash him in the face so doesn't back off just changes his bodyweight.. I don't like the twat but he is using the tech to its fullest and it is a new skillset... takes some bollocks trusting in it and getting the balance/set up right.

 

[no class]

all pre-programed settings..... not much fun in that ...... not saying Marquez is ghay..... would love to see him on the grid at the IOM tt .....that's where the big boys ride

[Rene EFE]

And they ALL hang in the tractioncontrol, and it is truly something to behold

[Rene EFE]

But, this is not a discussion about riding talent, because myself or pretty much anyone I know will never be able to use any of these systems to their full potential. What it is about, is can a guy in a shed (me) make a bike utterly unsuited for any of the things pointed out in the first post, still make it work?

[no class]

Yes...... yes he can .

[Sandman]

Most drivers do not drive hard enough to utilize TC. If you do not spin up the rear tire on the track, you do not need TC. An old gsxr is not that powerful and does not need TC :-)

[Rene EFE]

Trust me, it really can be

[Sandman]

Does Your GSXR have 190 HP on the rear wheel?