Very bad engine noise

[wraith]

Mate poped over today ask me to have a look at his blandit 12 as it was making a noise.

He has just had a new cam chain fitted.  I can't tell if it's the cam chain or big end that's making the noise also sounds like some of the tapets are out ?

When I take the cam cover off, is there any way to figure out if the big end has gone or is it a complete strip down ?

Bike ticks over nicely no hunting and is nice and sharp on the revs with no noise, till you revving it over 2-3000 rpm.

Any ideas?

[TonyGee]

cam timing is out by the sound of it !!!!  

[Dezza]

New cam chain = total engine strip and rebuild, unless a split link used. Any more info here? The obvious first point of call would be the cam chain tensioner not working correctly. And then as Tony says, check the chain isn't one tooth out somewhere.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Dezza

[Duckndive]

43 minutes ago, Dezza said:

New cam chain = total engine strip and rebuild, unless a split link used. Any more info here? The obvious first point of call would be the cam chain tensioner not working correctly. And then as Tony says, check the chain isn't one tooth out somewhere.

Don't think you can get a split link Hyvo chain ....unless soft riveted maybe....

   Definitely a timing check needed

[TonyGee]

1 minute ago, Duckndive said:

Don't think you can get a split link Hyvo chain ....unless soft riveted maybe....

   Definitely a timing check needed

yeah they come with a soft link 

[wraith]

Was a full strip down from what he says.

I would of thought, if the cam chain was out by a link the bike would not run? Or am I missing something here 

 

[Panos]

1 hour ago, Dezza said:

New cam chain = total engine strip and rebuild, unless a split link used. Any more info here? The obvious first point of call would be the cam chain tensioner not working correctly. And then as Tony says, check the chain isn't one tooth out somewhere.

Why strip the engine ?

I bought my GSXR with a bad cam chain , i just splitted the new chain , fed it through and run it for more than 30.000 km  no problems.

[wraith]

I believe the bandits and gsxr have different cam chains

[TonyGee]

1 hour ago, wraith said:

Was a full strip down from what he says.

I would of thought, if the cam chain was out by a link the bike would not run? Or am I missing something here 

 

i thought it was just a split cam chain that was fitted, but if it was a full engine strip then that could be a different matter.  who did the job ? and yeah an engine can run with the cam timing out by a tooth, any more and a modern engine would just lock up. 

[wraith]

I believe he and a mate from his works did the job, so I don't know just what they have done but I think it's looks like a start from the top and work down. Just hope it's just the timing and they haven't mixed up the crank shims.

[Captain Chaos]

2 hours ago, Dezza said:

New cam chain = total engine strip and rebuild

remove camshafts, turn engine upside down, remove bottom crankcase and crankshaft. All the other stuff stays in position.

[Jaydee]

I'd start with the easy stuff first. Bandit engines can be quiet tappet'y if one of the exhaust collars work loose. 

And they can run with the timing out by TWO teeth. Well the one I opened did! (stretched cam chain.)

The last two bandit hi-vo cam chains I changed were split link (engine still in bike) Just daisy chain on to the old chain. Hardest part is fitting the in between links before you deform the split link. Easy to check the the pins are mushroomed over. Each pin is 2.4mm diameter, flared ends were 2.7mm when finished. Never had any issues with open ended cam chains.

 

[TonyGee]

13 minutes ago, Jaydee said:

I'd start with the easy stuff first. Bandit engines can be quiet tappet'y if one of the exhaust collars work loose. 

And they can run with the timing out by TWO teeth. Well the one I opened did! (stretched cam chain.)

The last two bandit hi-vo cam chains I changed were split link (engine still in bike) Just daisy chain on to the old chain. Hardest part is fitting the in between links before you deform the split link. Easy to check the the pins are mushroomed over. Each pin is 2.4mm diameter, flared ends were 2.7mm when finished. Never had any issues with open ended cam chains.

 

yeah them chain plates can be a bitch to get in, you just have to make sure that all holes to the sump are well covered as the plates are easily dropped 

[Bobby]

was the noise there before the new chain or did he have the chain fitted as he thought this was the cause?

[wraith]

3 minutes ago, Bobby said:

was the noise there before the new chain or did he have the chain fitted as he thought this was the cause?

I don't know, going to have to ask him as I forgot to ask 

[Bobby]

worth asking as for all we know it could of been something they have done on the rebuild, there's so many things it can be really. but for me I would say loose cam chain as you say the noise/rattling is approx 2-3k revs.. typical for a chain. to rule out big ends stick it in first and try pull off gently with the brake on to put load on the motor, this then will make the big ends knock if there is excessive moment there .

[Jaydee]

24 minutes ago, TonyGee said:

yeah them chain plates can be a bitch to get in, you just have to make sure that all holes to the sump are well covered as the plates are easily dropped 

Now you sad it. Loads of rags covering everything, two ends of the cam chain tied in place to stop them slipping back. The little plates are a ball ache. I found the best way to get the link and plates on was to use two small allen keys and keep feeding them in and out as you get the 3 inside plates stitched in place, then as you feed out the allen keys out, start feeding in the pins on the split link and pop on the outside plate. Not a job to be at the morning after the night before.

[wraith]

Ok, quick update.

I've removed cam cover set timing on ATU and found that the number 1 arrow on ex cam was sat in the right link on chain but was pointing slightly upwards (say the 2.30 poison) not level with the cam cover face, but the next place for it to go, it sits facing slightly down below the cam cover face. Could put the arrow between the two rivet links and the arrow would be dead level with the cam cover face but that's not how the manual says it should go.

The slots on the end of the cams are more level the way I've set it (number 1 arrow pointing slightly down)

Number of pins where right. I know without slotted cam sprockets you don't get the arrow dead level with the face.

So was thinking and can't find anything in manual, is there any particular way/place the can chain should go on the crank cam sprocket?

Mate says he has replaced the cam chain as when he got the bike it was making the noise then, but got worse and was told it was the cam chain.

Have not tried starting the bike today after altering the timing, as his battery was flat 

Cheers for any help.

 

[Jaydee]

7 minutes ago, wraith said:

the number 1 arrow on ex cam was sat in the right link on chain but was pointing slightly upwards (say the 2.30 poison) not level with the cam cover face, but the next place for it to go, it sits facing slightly down below the cam cover face. Could

Is this with the exhaust camshaft sitting it place without being bolted down?

I always find that the arrow points a tiny bit downwards past the rocker surface until you start tightening down the cam caps. Then the angle of the cam wheel changes angle as camshaft gets tightened down.

Before install of cams, I pull the cam chain over to the mating surface and mark the pin above it with a tyre marker. Then I know the arrow has to point below this pin. 

[wraith]

1 minute ago, Jaydee said:

Is this with the exhaust camshaft sitting it place without being bolted down?

I always find that the arrow points a tiny bit downwards past the rocker surface until you start tightening down the cam caps. Then the angle of the cam wheel changes angle as camshaft gets tightened down.

Before install of cams, I pull the cam chain over to the mating surface and mark the pin above it with a tyre marker. Then I know the arrow has to point below this pin. 

This is with the cam bolted down, should of got some pics.

[wraith]

Good news, just been out to the garage and put the battery back on after 4 hrs of charge, bike started first time and no bad engine noise, well apart from the standard oil cooled rattles  so happy with that, mite as it's here have a check of the tapets but I think the only bad news is, he needs to get a new battery  as it's definitely lossing charge.

One thing I've learned, is bandit 1200 will run with the cam timing out 

[Dezza]

13 minutes ago, wraith said:

Good news, just been out to the garage and put the battery back on after 4 hrs of charge, bike started first time and no bad engine noise, well apart from the standard oil cooled rattles  so happy with that, mite as it's here have a check of the tapets but I think the only bad news is, he needs to get a new battery  as it's definitely lossing charge.

One thing I've learned, is bandit 1200 will run with the cam timing out 

So, was the problem due to the exhaust cam being out by 1 tooth?

[wraith]

Yes and No, both the exhaust and inlet cams out. He had the exhaust cam out the counted the 24 and set the inlet to that, so both out.

Now both are set right, still seems nice and responsive but on noise like the bottom end is about to drop out of the engine 

The main giveaway for me was the slots on the end of the cams where not horizontal to the head/cam face.