GSXF 1100 clutch discs - Solved

[Joseph]

I'll have to check that.

That would mean 11R crank in 11F case and therefore the potential beginning of a big headache ?

Edited October 19, 2020 by Joseph

[no class]

15 hours ago, Joseph said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Joseph said:

Hi

Engine i bought rebuilt. It has been modified (1216, cams, ports) and has been fitted with a 6 speed box from an 88 or 89 7R

I have had the bike on the road, but its no good.

Engine with bike on the stand revs well, holds a normal RPM idle

Since tinkering with it i have found out that it was supplied with

- 4 spring pressure plate clutch basket from F

- 11R discs (so not as many as F, and, there was a steel disc contacting at the bottom of the basket

- 11R clutch plate pushrod

That allowed the bike to ride, but no speed, no actual acceleration but engine revs up then it kinda kicks in, all the symptoms of a worn out clutch.

 

and now we know why your clutch is not working .  the other important issue is that 6 speed gearbox..... they were weak in the stock 1127 conversions.... imagine a 1216 ....

[Joseph]

So what is the problem with the clutch then ?

Since that initial equipement was assessed the current setup i am aiming for is a total F assembly but it's stuck somewhere.

I just hope it's an F crank and basket, but i guess it's not 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Joseph

[wraith]

With all what's been done to the engine, you have to ask yourself why did the last owner sell it.

[Duckndive]

3 hours ago, Joseph said:

I just hope it's an F crank and basket, but i guess it's not 

it could have 1100 K crank and basket "also coil spring clutch"

or a slabbie crank and basket again coil spring clutch....

only the 1100F had a helical gear as far as i know 

not sure what the shafie had but the crankcases are different on that anyway 

[Joseph]

Well looks like an F crank with helical basket to me 

Need to take it all out to check those fat washer/spacers are there. Beyond that i can't see what else to check 

 

[clivegto]

Are those teeth at a angle or straight, I cannot tell from the picture. 

[Duckndive]

33 minutes ago, clivegto said:

Are those teeth at a angle or straight, I cannot tell from the picture. 

Helical 

so its an 1100F basket ...be interested to see pics of the clutch when you strip it 

But i think it needs another steel and you need to shorten push rod maybe 

Are you using cable or hydraulic operation 

EDIT and check to see if there may be a ball bearing between the clutch push rods 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Duckndive

[Joseph]

Right.

I got the whole clutch basket out

Using the hydro clutch system, with what i think is the correct parts for a 11F as far as rods and plates go

However, @no classwas correct for the fat washer/spacer, it has not been fitted behind the basket.

No ball bearing or anything else home made as far as the clutch goes

[no class]

once that spacer is in place you should be back in buisness..... make sure you install the spacer correctly...., there is a machined groove to let oill do it’s thing...... if I recall it faces outwards towards the basket .

[Joseph]

16 hours ago, wraith said:

With all what's been done to the engine, you have to ask yourself why did the last owner sell it.

I missed that

He parted out his project because he had to finish building his house, and this track bike 11R built throughout with race/endurance parts was holding a lot of cash.

That and the fact that he decided to track his 750 SRAD

This engine build was detailed on my french message board, he seemed pretty anal about it, it's completely new (cometic gasket set throughout, new shells and bearings. NOS gearbox, Ti valve shells and APE springs etc etc). Not sure why he messed up in the clutch department but it seems tight otherwise

He never had it running, i'm the first to have started it and ridden a few miles with it

Edited October 20, 2020 by Joseph

[Captain Chaos]

3 hours ago, Joseph said:

This engine build was detailed on my french message board

Link please?

[Joseph]

Ah, well i bought this engine 2 years ago, it was built 10 years ago, I've done a bit of archaeology to find the topic.

It's here but no photos left just descriptions of the jobs done

http://forum.airhuile.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20462&hilit=1216

[Captain Chaos]

I am also a member of airhuile.com. Some cool projects going on there. 

[Joseph]

Yes indeed, but unfortunately rarely things as epic as in the UK, due to vehicle laws in France and quite a different approach as far as love of bike building hobby goes 

[Joseph]

Hey

Some good news, but still some issues and questions

So, it turns out i had not checked properly, the fat washer was indeed behind the clutch case, due to how it fits it wasn't obvious

However, in the interest of test, i added a second one, and then fitted the hub and discs.

Turns out the pressure plate seemed to seat properly with this extra offset (and someone here mentioned adding an extra disc ?)

So with all that put together, i did a road test. Turns out it is now putting down power to the wheel properly, however of I cane it a bit i get some clutch slippage (probably due to my set up and not the overload of HP )

However, having delved into the build topic i linked above, to check if i found any info, the guy mentioned he had used "a clutch hub and pressure plate from a 1052"

Pressure plate has the same ref as the 11F, the clutch hub however does not.

 

No idea why he did that however, rather than using the whole 11F clutch, maybe i should find a hub I am sure is a F ?

[Gixer1460]

That did occur to me whilst reading the Googled Translation of the site (good for a giggle!) If the GSXR has 9/10 plates and the 'F' uses 10/11 - it would appear that is the problem as that definitely looks like a steel and fibre short in the stack! And using two of the thick washers isn't a solution so not recommended. 

[Joseph]

Ok, but therefore, if this is a 1052 hub, for 10+9, shouldn't it be shorter that a F hub using 11+10 ? I currently do have 11+10 in the clutch.

Won't be easy to find the difference between the two, but i think i should look into getting an F one indeed

[wraith]

 54mm

59mm form I side the shaft hole (ruler on deck) to top of hub

Gsx1100f hub

[Joseph]

Oh damn I didn't see you'd posted that.

I need to compare to mine

BUT

I've been riding it tonight !!!

I took out the clutch, removed the extra washer and put it back to standard

And added an extra steel and ferodo disc

Making it 12+11

And bloody hell it goes 

Lifting up in 4th

Need to check it over but seems sorted

[no class]

40 minutes ago, Joseph said:

 

I've been riding it tonight !!!

I took out the clutch, removed the extra washer and put it back to standard

And added an extra steel and ferodo disc

Making it 12+11

And bloody hell it goes 

Lifting up in 4th

 

.... lifting in 4th?  how much boost you running ?

[Joseph]

6 speed 750 box with a bigger rear sprocket

[Physician]

Fyi 3 years ago i bought the correct friction discs for my 1100f , 9 thin (as gsxr) and 2 thickers from megazip. So they are still available.

[Joseph]

Hi

Seeing that i finally recieved the 2 missing discs and that the bodged setup with extra discs was not the best (kinda crunchy)

Back at it

It's still shit

Spec sheet of the lump :

- GSXF 1100 engine case

- GSXR 750 six speed box

- GSXF 1100 clutch basket, with new OE friction discs (the 2 outer and 9 inner)

- GSXF 1100 push pin in the basket

- GSXF 1100 central clutch rod

- GSXF 1100 92 mm primary push rod

- clutch slave smaller piston version

- 14 mm MC

 

The gears engage well, the neutral position is not spot on to find (but almost perfect compared to the previous extra disc set up), the clutch is slipping, as soon as i give it some stick it just slips. Can only pootle along in 1 2 3 gear and its just cruising lamely.

really can't see what is wrong here. I feel like i am the first person with such a set up and i know that is not the case but can't seem to find anyone with the right experience

Edited January 31, 2021 by Joseph

[Joseph]

So, thinking about it again and trying to find a different angle, in view of the current situation and set up :

- the clutch springs i have, if they may be too soft, do the similar type GSXR and what i believe to be GSXF bear the same rating ? (I checked, not the same part nº)

- for some reason, maybe the total length of the non compressible factor, (i.e. the total length of primary push rod, central rod, and the end rod that pushes the pressure plate) is maybe just a tad too long which means it keeps the discs slightly relieved from one another ?

In view of that i'm going to test that path and see the difference if any to start with, then maybe replace springs because it is now the onlt unknown factor of the clutch set up.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Joseph