Lithium, GEL or total re-plan?

[Dool09]

I had (niavely) thought that the only things I had to think about when choosing a Lithium battery for my project bike was, is it small enough to fit? and does it have enough cranking amps?

I have been reading in horror some of the story's on here of these batteries bursting into flames or at least nearly combusting. 

Has anyone cracked this 70's/80's bike with Lithium battery riddle yet? I've been told that a new mosfet reg/rec will be all I need to make sure the lithium battery doesn't get over charged and decide to cook me and my bike. I have then been assured by a retailer (Rex) of mosfet reg/recs that that is not true and I will be BBQ'd if I use a lithium battery.  There is a place in the states that say they have specific reg/recs for lithium batteries but at £140 plus the £200 for the Antigravity battery small enough and powerful enough for the job seems mighty steep! they set the voltage to 14v +/- .2 I believe any higher than 14.6v is when you start to get cooked?

I'm more than happy to replace the reg/rec but was hoping to use a £50-£60 unit, so then I thought GEL battery! but I can't find any as small as an 8 cell lithium, anyone got any experience with these? I don't want to switch to GEL and get cooked anyway.

[wraith]

I've always used Varta batterys, there a acid battery but sealed for life, the one I used on both my big bore gs1000 and the oil cooled 1127 motor is the Varta  yxt9 which has a 8Ah capacity and CCA 135A , I know it's not the right spec for ever bike but it works 

Sizes W 88mm L 152mm H 106mm

 

[Arttu]

As long as we are talking about LiFePo4 batteries that are intended for lead battery replacement they don't need any special regulator. Just normal regulator that works should be fine. But updating to modern mosfet regulator is definitely a good idea since they should be more reliable and accurate than old ones.

Lithium-Ion batteries would be completely different story. They need different charging voltage and more precise charging control so connecting one to normal charging system is definitely a bad idea. But all these typical lithium batteries for bikes, Shorai, Antigravity etc, are LiFePo4 type as far as I know.

LiFePo4 batteries should be relatively safe even when overcharged. At least much safer than Li-Ion batteries that can easily burst in flames. LiFePo4 batteries should just die without any extra drama if you overcharge them. Of course there can be exceptions to this rule. On the other hand overcharging a lead-acid battery can be quite nasty as well in the worst case. Personally I have toasted just one LiFePo4 battery due to faulty regulator and it went like expected. The battery just died, no smoke, no flames, no swelling or anything like that. It was just a brick after that, didn't take or give any current.

[Dool09]

19 hours ago, wraith said:

I've always used Varta batterys, there a acid battery but sealed for life, the one I used on both my big bore gs1000 and the oil cooled 1127 motor is the Varta  yxt9 which has a 8Ah capacity and CCA 135A , I know it's not the right spec for ever bike but it works 

Sizes W 88mm L 152mm H 106mm

 

I'll check them out, thank you.

[Dool09]

8 hours ago, Arttu said:

As long as we are talking about LiFePo4 batteries that are intended for lead battery replacement they don't need any special regulator. Just normal regulator that works should be fine. But updating to modern mosfet regulator is definitely a good idea since they should be more reliable and accurate than old ones.

Lithium-Ion batteries would be completely different story. They need different charging voltage and more precise charging control so connecting one to normal charging system is definitely a bad idea. But all these typical lithium batteries for bikes, Shorai, Antigravity etc, are LiFePo4 type as far as I know.

LiFePo4 batteries should be relatively safe even when overcharged. At least much safer than Li-Ion batteries that can easily burst in flames. LiFePo4 batteries should just die without any extra drama if you overcharge them. Of course there can be exceptions to this rule. On the other hand overcharging a lead-acid battery can be quite nasty as well in the worst case. Personally I have toasted just one LiFePo4 battery due to faulty regulator and it went like expected. The battery just died, no smoke, no flames, no swelling or anything like that. It was just a brick after that, didn't take or give any current.

Thank you for the explanation, I was unaware of the difference in Li-ion and LiFePo4. Could be as simple as a decent modern regulator upgrade and an Antigravity after all.

[Fjbj40]

I have been running a Ballistic 8 cell https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/product_info.php?products_id=425 in my 1000 for 4-5 years and my ass has not burnt off yet, although the wife says it's flat enough that it looks like it has .

I also am running a #%!da RR from a gold thing, it is a 7 wire unit IIRC. Works just fine.

[Dool09]

4 minutes ago, Fjbj40 said:

I have been running a Ballistic 8 cell https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/product_info.php?products_id=425 in my 1000 for 4-5 years and my ass has not burnt off yet, although the wife says it's flat enough that it looks like it has .

I also am running a #%!da RR from a gold thing, it is a 7 wire unit IIRC. Works just fine.

Nice one, cheers mate. I had looked at ballistic they look good.

[Gammaboy]

LiFePO4 Battery, Shindigen FH020AA or SH775 reg/rec, wire the stator directly to the reg rec instead of one phase being via headlight switch, job done.

[Fjbj40]

21 minutes ago, Gammaboy said:

LiFePO4 Battery, Shindigen FH020AA or SH775 reg/rec, wire the stator directly to the reg rec instead of one phase being via headlight switch, job done.

Yup, exactly what I did , get rid of that silly idea Suzuki had, also stops wires from melting. Do yourself a favour and also use the ignition switch wiring to close a relay instead of having all the power for the Fusebox go through the ignition switch 

[Gammaboy]

I haven't done an ignition relay, had an issue with another bike where voltage drop during starting caused the relay to flutter and this eventually killed something in the CDI.

I have thrown away the stock stator and crappy magnet rotor and moved to a modern rare earth magnet rotor and associated stator though.

[Fjbj40]

10 hours ago, Gammaboy said:

I haven't done an ignition relay, had an issue with another bike where voltage drop during starting caused the relay to flutter and this eventually killed something in the CDI.

I have thrown away the stock stator and crappy magnet rotor and moved to a modern rare earth magnet rotor and associated stator though.

This sounds interesting! Is there a thread on the site showing and explaining this set-up?

[Gammaboy]

13 hours ago, Fjbj40 said:

This sounds interesting! Is there a thread on the site showing and explaining this set-up?

It's all covered in here:

 

[Gammaboy]

Looks like i'm coming up on having run that mod for 2 years now.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Gammaboy

[Fjbj40]

Ok!

I have read through that one before but forgot about it. I was also under the impression, when I read the last time, your "FFS" it doesn't work post,  was serious. I see now, after that post, that it works .

So, did you use coombehouse PDF drawing for your machine work?

thanks

[Gammaboy]

I really only used the spacer thickness - which turned out to be 3.5mm too thick for a small pcd katana cover. From memory the Ricks Stator i wound up using didn't need the clearance notch, and I had to make my spacer a PCD adaptor for the small pcd cover. I wouldn't have run into those problems if I hadn't fucked up the cut on my large PCD cover. Infact, I've still got the large PCD spacer floating around - the cheapo stator needed extra clearance pockets in the spacer for the rivets holding it together.

Like so:

 

I also just used the stock thrust washer, the extra mm of play in there wasn't going to cause an issue. What Coombehouse hadn't gotten far enough to discover was the need for a spacer/washer between the rotor and the nut. Should be able to *just* see it here:

 

[Dezza]

Getting back to the practicalities of Li batteries on old bikes, I see now that Motobatt produce LiP04 batteries with an inbuilt gizmo that further protects the battery in case it accidentally gets overcharged. Their batteries are the same size as the 'normal' equivelent but much lighter, unlike other Li batteries I have seen which are smaller than 'normal' batteries.

[Gammaboy]

On 6/8/2018 at 5:59 PM, Dezza said:

Getting back to the practicalities of Li batteries on old bikes, I see now that Motobatt produce LiP04 batteries with an inbuilt gizmo that further protects the battery in case it accidentally gets overcharged. Their batteries are the same size as the 'normal' equivelent but much lighter, unlike other Li batteries I have seen which are smaller than 'normal' batteries.

If you dig through the catalogs, you'll probably find that some of the much smaller footprint batteries have the same capacity and current specs as the larger batteries - Most of the lithium manufacturers are putting the same cells/electronics kit into different shells, and they either come with an external spacer to make them a drop in, or do the spacer as part of the battery shell. What you buy depends if you want the smallest footprint, or a drop in replacement...

[NorthernBloke]

Also if you want an inexpensive MOSFET RR some modern jap bikes have them as standard now so no need to pay £100 plus for a new one or risk a dodgy Chinese copy you can get a used one from a less popular bike for £20 to £30 quid on the bay of E

[coombehouse]

16 minutes ago, NorthernBloke said:

Also if you want an inexpensive MOSFET RR some modern jap bikes have them as standard now so no need to pay £100 plus for a new one or risk a dodgy Chinese copy you can get a used one from a less popular bike for £20 to £30 quid on the bay of E

List of candidates please.

[370steve]

22 minutes ago, coombehouse said:

List of candidates please.

R1, i used one on my Hornet, got it for £25 off e-bay

[coombehouse]

What year R1 would that be then. I can't imagine that they haven't changed for 20 years of production.

Rhanks

[370steve]

4 minutes ago, coombehouse said:

What year R1 would that be then.

Modern one 

[coombehouse]

What colour

[370steve]

i am just looking through my old records, but think it was Red 

[370steve]

just looked through old thread with link, link now dead, but got mosfet r/r in 2010

It has the marking  FHO 12 AA when you put it into E-bay you get

https://www.Eblag.co.uk/p/2010-Yamaha-YZF-R1-Rectifier-Voltage-Regulator-FHO-12aa-9-0-271/1649417302

Edited June 21, 2018 by 370steve