Removing second gear

[Boogieman]

Hi,

I have to replace my 5th gear set on an early GSX1100E. Has anyone gotten the drive 2nd gear (the pressed on one) off without damaging it?

if I can get it off without damage, I'll replace the 5th drive gear and refit the pressed 2nd gear and weld it on   

Any help would be appreciated  

cheers

 

[Gixer1460]

It'll take a fair bit of force but no reason damage WILL occur........it MIGHT, but that's the risk. Usually 2nd is as worn as 5th so usually get replaced together!

[Boogieman]

What's got me stumped is how to get behind it to push iit as there isn't much room. My thought is to push 5th and hopefully 2nd will come off. 

[Duckndive]

1 hour ago, Boogieman said:

What's got me stumped is how to get behind it to push iit as there isn't much room. My thought is to push 5th and hopefully 2nd will come off. 

You need something like these ....

The old workshop press we had years ago had loads of plates for the job.......

may be worth a head round the door at a local "old time" garage

[kitkatman]

Is that a track rod end splitter you would use on a car. If it is you should be able to get one from local car discount shop.You could try local engineering shop, most have a small press.

[Duckndive]

24 minutes ago, kitkatman said:

Is that a track rod end splitter you would use on a car. If it is you should be able to get one from local car discount shop.You could try local engineering shop, most have a small press.

Just some pics I found that are similar profile to the plates you use on a press

track rod splitter would not budge it ....

[skelly]

You can support the shaft underneath 5th gear and press on the shaft.

Mine took around 8.5 tonnes to get it to move.

Dont weld 2nd gear on.

Its not a good idea.

[Gammaboy]

4 hours ago, skelly said:

Dont weld 2nd gear on.

Its not a good idea.

Disagree

[skelly]

Its better practice to drill half & half then pin it.

But not all the way through.

[Boogieman]

40 minutes ago, skelly said:

Its better practice to drill half & half then pin it.

But not all the way through.

Not sure what you mean Skelly. Have you got a pic?

[skelly]

Aint got a pic.

However what you do is this.

Fit 2nd gear onto the shaft so that its in the correct position.

Then stand the shaft upright in the milling machine and carefully drill between the gear and the shaft but not all the way through the gear.

Around 3/4 of the way is fine.

Then put a silversteel pin in and dot punch the gear in two diametrically opposed locations to stop the pin from coming out.

This way it cant move.

If you weld it it makes the gear expand and it sits like that in its welded position as it can no longer contract back due to the weld holding it off the shaft.

It is the interferance that hold it on the shaft in its normal state so welding kinda compronises that.

Welding will work but its not overly professional and it can make life difficult if you need to split it in the future.

Hope that helps.

Its just like pinning a crankshaft.

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by skelly
spelling mistake and extra info.

[Gammaboy]

7 hours ago, skelly said:

Aint got a pic.

However what you do is this.

Fit 2nd gear onto the shaft so that its in the correct position.

Then stand the shaft upright in the milling machine and carefully drill between the gear and the shaft but not all the way through the gear.

Around 3/4 of the way is fine.

Then put a silversteel pin in and dot punch the gear in two diametrically opposed locations to stop the pin from coming out.

This way it cant move.

If you weld it it makes the gear expand and it sits like that in its welded position as it can no longer contract back due to the weld holding it off the shaft.

It is the interferance that hold it on the shaft in its normal state so welding kinda compronises that.

Welding will work but its not overly professional and it can make life difficult if you need to split it in the future.

Hope that helps.

Its just like pinning a crankshaft.

 

Nice idea, but the local GSX guru has seen numerous split gears from guys trying pinning/scotch pinning 2nd gear.  Drilling on the interface of the gear/shaft interface also relaxes the press fit by reducing the hoop stress capacity of the gear. Have seen numerous other cases of split gears from pinning - it just poor practice on a small diameter gear..

Welds shrink when they cool - if anything it will increase the press fit. Spining the teeth of the gear through a tub of water while welding also helps control the heat.

[skelly]

Interesting.

How do you go about removing the weld if you need to strip the shaft ?

Do you chamfer the gear bore and shaft for a weld prep before you fit it back on or just carefully tig it as is ?

 

[Gixer1460]

41 minutes ago, skelly said:

Interesting.

How do you go about removing the weld if you need to strip the shaft ?

Do you chamfer the gear bore and shaft for a weld prep before you fit it back on or just carefully tig it as is ?

 

I would have thought a couple of tacks back and front would suffice - its the friction fit that stops it going anywhere. A cold chisel would break the tacks if ever needed?

[skelly]

16 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

I would have thought a couple of tacks back and front would suffice - its the friction fit that stops it going anywhere. A cold chisel would break the tacks if ever needed?

Sounds good but you can't get to the back of the gear so you can only weld on one face.

At the end of the day its still gona be a compromise whatever you do as the design intent never anticipated mega power and torque.

I wonder if there are any other ways to stop it spinning ?

Ie custom made gear with more interferance fit that has to be heated and fitted to a super cooled shaft.

Slightly over sized shaft to get the same result ?

Woodruff key ? Lol

Friction welding ?

Any ideas ?

 

[Screwriverracing]

How about not nailing it  till you get into third gear.

Cheers SRR

Edited September 27, 2016 by Screwriverracing

[Duckndive]

3 hours ago, skelly said:

Sounds good but you can't get to the back of the gear so you can only weld on one face.

At the end of the day its still gona be a compromise whatever you do as the design intent never anticipated mega power and torque.

I wonder if there are any other ways to stop it spinning ?

Ie custom made gear with more interferance fit that has to be heated and fitted to a super cooled shaft.

Slightly over sized shaft to get the same result ?

Woodruff key ? Lol

Friction welding ?

Any ideas ?

 

Aftermarket boxes like the liberty 6 speed and the Robinson 3 speeds use a splined shaft same as the oil boiler gearbox................

 

[Gammaboy]

I always figured if i needed to pull it apart again, I'd be budgeting for a new shaft and 2nd gear anyway (I'd replaced 3rd, 4thr and 5th, have a spare shaft too). Having said that, chucking it up in a lathe should be easy enough to machine the weld out. Worst case, angle grinder/chop saw through 2nd and the shaft will recover the rest of the cluster.

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Gammaboy

[Gammaboy]

3 hours ago, Screwriverracing said:

How about not nailing it  till you get into third gear.

Cheers SRR

That takes all the fun out of it.

[Boogieman]

Gammaboy and I are lucky enough to have the countries (dare I say) #1 GSX builder not too far away. He's retired now so I have to work out how to achieve the same outcome without his input.

He and his right hand man both have 200+ hp NA street bikes and they swear by welding it on so that was never in question, just how to go about it without his help. 

I've measured the shaft so if I ever have to cut the weld off, I have the shaft OD and a helpful machine shop around the corner from me who I ended up getting to press the gear off because some cheeky bugger knocked off the plates on the press at work. 

 

Thanks for for the input all. 

[Fazz711]

On 24/09/2016 at 1:29 PM, Duckndive said:

You need something like these ....

The old workshop press we had years ago had loads of plates for the job.......

may be worth a head round the door at a local "old time" garage

Mechanical separator. Sykes pickavant do them and probably others