1996 SB6 No Spark

[ArcanumOne]

Hello Everyone,

 

Have a problem with my SB6's '96 GSXR1100 Water cooled engine not getting any spark.  During troubleshooting checked basics such as resistance for primary and secondary coil, caps and cables--all checked out OK.  Replaced the coils and cables with new; replaced the Ignitor box and replaced the Signal Generator.  Validated negative ground and continuity with all connections.  Tested the Kick-stand lock-out switch, all OK.  The diode for the kickstand is also good.  All new spark plugs--tried conventional copper and iridium form NGK.

For the GSXR1100W from Suzuki, i know there is a resistor in the ignition switch which sometimes failed.  If that was replaced it would solve the problem.  Not sure though if the Zado ignition switch has such a resistor.  The manual I have from Bimota has a wiring diagram, but I find it useless.

Anyone experience this kind of problem and solve it?  8500 miles on the bike.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by ArcanumOne
Spelling and grammar; clarification.

[Dezza]

Does it use the OEM Suzuki 1100W CDI unit? The resistor in the ignition switch is a primative anti-hotwiring feature so if the bike has the same CDI as the 1100W then my guess is it will need a fully functioning switch resistor in order to run. The resistor may not be in the switch though. Maybe it's in the loom somewhere. Does the bike use a Bimota specific loom? I am guessing here so hopefully an SB6 owner will be along later.

Also, have you checked out the kill switch and all of its connections?

Edited May 23, 2022 by Dezza

[TonyGee]

first thing I check is if their is 12V at the coils, if so its an ignition problem. if not its no battery voltage.  just helps to what side of the harness to check. 

[ArcanumOne]

Thank you for the responses, guys. 

The kill switch is OK--tested.

This is a specific Bimota wiring harness.  What makes this so hard is even the color codes of the wires are different from the GSXR's (I have both the GSXR1100 and a Bimota SB6 manuals).

I am going to remove the Ignition switch and see if any resistors are present.  I'll check the switch out with a multi-tester as well.  There are three relays behind the twin headlights--one is the kickstand relay, another is the starter relay and the third is the turn signal relay.  Starter relay is good, all fuses are good.  Will check the other two relays.

Testing the coil primary terminal connectors:   I connect one test lead to the hot wire and ground the other test lead to the engine and get 12.67 volts. This is with the ignition on.  

The engine was receiving spark on 3 of the four cylinders when the symptoms first presented.  I changed the Spark Plug, and it resolved only to return later on another cylinder.  I replaced that plug and it resolved.  Finally, after two weeks of  storing the bike, there is no spark at all.  The coils are new Suzuki OEM coils, and so is the signal generator.  I did a spark test using all new plugs by grounding the plug to the engine - no spark.  The CDI box is Part Number Suzuki 32900-46E00, yellow label vs black or red.  The wiring to this CDI box does not align to any of Suzuki's wiring diagrams for any year GSXR, for any market.  For example, the Green/Black wires form the signal generator would show in a Suzuki wiring diagram as going to the ignitor.  The wiring to the ignitor box does not have any green wire going to it.  It goes somewhere else in the rat's nest.  The Bimota wiring diagrams I have access to do not describe where any of the wires go nor do they indicate the color of the wires adding to my frustration....

I am the original owner of the bike purchased new.

Edited May 23, 2022 by ArcanumOne
corrections

[TonyGee]

would using a GSXR harness be a better bet ? 

[ArcanumOne]

Starting to sound like a good option....

[Dezza]

On the Fowlers parts website, the CDI is the correct part for an 1100W (1993-1998; WP-WW). All of the CDIs I have worked with have a wires-in cluster (from ignition sender) and a wires-out cluster (to coils) and earth, switched positive etc. You should be able to trace these wires and test for continuity and check for dodgy earths and connections. I am still wondering if Bimota have stuck a resistor in the loom somewhere if it's not in the switch. The last W bike (750 W) I experienced which wouldn't start turned out to have a dodgy resistor connection in the ignition switch.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Dezza

[ArcanumOne]

Thank you for the insight.  I tore the entire wiring loom apart--found a resistor for the temp gauge and a diode for the kickstand.  No other resistors.

No resistor in the ignition switch--pics below:

[Dezza]

Puzzling: if not in the switch and it uses an OEM CDI unit then we would have expected a resistor somewhere .

[TonyGee]

some suzuki's use a 3 pin diode (bandit) in the harness, don't know if you have one in yours but if you put it in backwards theirs no spark. ?????  just a thought. 

[Losiu]

I would try to start the engine through the jumper cables from the car / tractor / something with a lot of Amperes

[ArcanumOne]

So, I spent some time last night studying the Bimota SB6 wiring diagram.  I think I figured it out how the diagram works now.  The signal Generator lead which has a green and black wire from the generator itself connects to a black and darker green colored wire in the harness.  The wiring diagram shows this green wire connected to the CDI (the larger connector that has only three wires as opposed to the smaller black with four wires).  When I do a continuity check (Key off) between the green wire at the signal generator connector and to the CDI block, there is no continuity.  I suspect now there is an issue with that wire in the loom.  Will disassemble the loom again a bit deeper and see if there is a resistor or a damaged wire.  Stay tuned.

As far as the diode, there is one present, however--it is for the side-stand switch only.  

The resistor in Suzuki legacy GSXR  ignitions is located in the wire coming from the switch, concealed inside the protective plastic sleeving.  I have not actually ever seen a resistor in the switch itself.

There is a resistor further down in the wiring harness, but it is specifically for the temp gauge.

In response to Losiu's suggestion, I like the concept?  Maybe a good zap with a welding prod :-)

As always, I really appreciate your responses and insight.  Thank you!

Edited May 24, 2022 by ArcanumOne
Added detail.

[Gixer1460]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:26 PM, ArcanumOne said:

 When I do a continuity check (Key off) between the green wire at the signal generator connector and to the CDI block, there is no continuity.  I suspect now there is an issue with that wire in the loom. 

Before delving deep into the loom - just try a direct wire from SG to the CDI block, that will either reinforce or dispel that area for diagnosis!

[wombat258]

I would have ditched the stock system and installed a Dyna 2000 ignition and coils. Problem solved!

[Gixer1460]

Oh dear - that'll get the Dyna haters out LOL!

[ArcanumOne]

Still testing.  I found the correct path for the SG and repaired the wire.  Now the starter won't work.  

I am trying to determine how the kickstand relay receives power.  I tested the relay and it clicks with continuity being achieved across the other set of terminals.  So far as I can see, the relay receives its power from the coils but I can't determine the source to the coils.  The starter and kick-stand relay and switch check-out ok.  The switches on the handlebars are OK as I am able to bypass certain sections of the wiring harness and get the bike to turn-over via the starter switch.

Will continue troubleshooting and advise.

Edited June 1, 2022 by ArcanumOne

[ArcanumOne]

SOLVED.

 

I reversed two connectors I SWORE up and down were correct.  They weren't.  Ever have one of those "aha!" moments when you're really not concentrating on the problem?  Well.....

Thank you al for who contributed.  Lesson learned.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ArcanumOne

[TonyGee]

Nobody is perfect 

[ArcanumOne]

Update--while the cranking problem was resolved, I still have no spark--and this is driving me nuts.

I replaced the CDI box, both coils and all cables with new Suzuki OEM parts, all new plugs and a new Signal Generator.  No spark.  Battery voltage is about 12.8.  I was able to see spark intermittently when cranking a couple of times, then thereafter no spark from that point.  This time I made sure all connectors are correct, and all fuses are good--replaced them all anyway with new ones just to make sure and cleaned all the contacts for the terminals.

I can see voltage fluctuating on and off while cranking if I put test leads into the coil feeds.  The wires coming out of the top connector on the CDI box are Brown/Blue (top) and White/Black (bottom).  Black and white are power feeds and have 12 volts +.  Blue has 12 Volts + but brown shows no voltage.  

The bike is too old to have a Suzuki shop test.  I did buy a second CDI box as a comparison, but no joy.  Anyone have any suggestions on what to try next?

[Blubber]

Is the ignition switch working as intended?

I have had all weird errors on my FI - gsx1400 because of a worn ignition switch.  It made contact but only on a small copper surface. I had to fill some of the plastic components to regain full motion and coverage of the copper slides. 

Since i did that the bike had been performing faultless for 40.000km's 

[ArcanumOne]

Yup, checked and disassembled, all works fine.  Minimal wear since there are so few miles on it for its age (8800 miles).  Used multi-tool  and verified all connections good.

[ArcanumOne]

Ok, I have her running again.  Two iridium plugs went bad.  I tested all four, only two sparked.  Cleaned and regapped to .7 mm, still would not spark so they are in the trash.  They were only recently replaced.  All plugs renewed with good ol’ copper NGK CR9E plugs.  Started right up.

I had replaced the OEM coils several years ago because the cables were arcing to the cam cover.  Decided it might be fun to replace with Dyna mini 3 ohm coils and their brand of cables.  All was fine until 4 months ago when the ignition started missing, then firing on only three, then two cylinders, then none at all.  Replaced the plugs and all was fine for about 135 miles and again, some of the new plugs failed.

Went back to brand new OEM Suzuki coils and cables, and she runs again.  Will see how long these plugs last now with stock coils and CR9E plugs.  Maybe the Dyna coils and OEM igniter did not play nicely with one another.

Will do some maintenance on her (oil/filter, coolant change, new front pads and brake fluid change), then will post some pics of her soon.

 

 

[Fazz711]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:53 AM, ArcanumOne said:

Ok, I have her running again.  Two iridium plugs went bad.  I tested all four, only two sparked.  Cleaned and regapped to .7 mm, still would not spark so they are in the trash.  They were only recently replaced.  All plugs renewed with good ol’ copper NGK CR9E plugs.  Started right up.

I had replaced the OEM coils several years ago because the cables were arcing to the cam cover.  Decided it might be fun to replace with Dyna mini 3 ohm coils and their brand of cables.  All was fine until 4 months ago when the ignition started missing, then firing on only three, then two cylinders, then none at all.  Replaced the plugs and all was fine for about 135 miles and again, some of the new plugs failed.

Went back to brand new OEM Suzuki coils and cables, and she runs again.  Will see how long these plugs last now with stock coils and CR9E plugs.  Maybe the Dyna coils and OEM igniter did not play nicely with one another.

Will do some maintenance on her (oil/filter, coolant change, new front pads and brake fluid change), then will post some pics of her soon.

 

 

Were the plugs from reputable company. 

I have heard of nock off NGK ones doing the rounds

[ArcanumOne]

I have heard that knock-off NGKs are out there, but I purchased these over the counter at a big auto parts chain.

The bike is back together.  Test ride was excellent- hesitation and acceleration delays are gone and she runs like new again.  

 

[ArcanumOne]

UPDATE:  The spark issue resurfaced after about 4 weeks after my last post.  The OEM plug in the Bimota Service Manual and the GSXR1100 W Factory Manual both call for NGK CR9E plugs.  I decided to install NGK CR9EAK spark plugs, these have the two side electrodes instead of just one.  They came already gapped.  The engine started right away and ran much smoother.  I have had the plugs in for a year now and the engine is running flawlessly with excellent Performance and no hesitation.  (The plugs have the same dimensions).