APE studs and oiling

[rerb]

Hi, I decided to use APE HD head studs and nuts in my turbo build, but the other day on a turbo bike FB group I saw someone mention that a top end oiling kit would be necessary as the HD studs would restrict oil flow through the studs. is this true? Are there any other ways around it? thanks.

[mikeyd]

Yes.,true for me. You can try ARP # 271-4701 studs for gen 1 Hayabusa. They are narrowed, similar to oem stuff.

[Maggotbreath]

55,000km turbo'd 1100 with Ape studs, OEM top end oiling no issues.

[rerb]

31 minutes ago, mikeyd said:

Yes.,true for me. You can try ARP # 271-4701 studs for gen 1 Hayabusa. They are narrowed, similar to oem stuff.

Really, busa studs would fit a 1200?

[Gixer1460]

For oil cooled GSXR - it is not an issue! GSXR's have more oil pressure than they know what to do with!

[rerb]

4 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

For oil cooled GSXR - it is not an issue! GSXR's have more oil pressure than they know what to do 

That clears it up for me, I wasn't sure if the mk1 b12s were more oil or air cooled.

On another loosely oil related note, should I use an oil pressure gauge off my oil feed line to the turbo to gauge whether or not I need a restrictor? its for a td04. I saw someone said to measure the amount of oil going to it, but I'm confused if its the oil volume or pressure that I should be checking. Thanks 

[clivegto]

Use a 1mm restrictor to my tdo4l and using ape studs no problems in last 3 years. Road bike, best dyno figure was 260hp. 

[Arttu]

10 hours ago, rerb said:

On another loosely oil related note, should I use an oil pressure gauge off my oil feed line to the turbo to gauge whether or not I need a restrictor? its for a td04. I saw someone said to measure the amount of oil going to it, but I'm confused if its the oil volume or pressure that I should be checking. Thanks 

Definitely a good idea. Then you will know what pressure you are feeding to the turbo instead of blindly following heresay about different restrictor sizes and what not...

As rule of thumb a plain bearing turbo, like that TD04, needs about 2-5 bar pressure at operating rpms. If your supply pressure stays within that range it should be good to go. If you get more then you can add a restrictor to reduce pressure.

[MeanBean49]

Its funny, I was following that FB thread too, and if you get into it, the person saying top end oiling kit fixed their issues, actually failed to mention that they had previously also trapped the oil o-ring washers on top of the studs, which is what actually caused the issue, they fitted the oiling kit the same time they sorted the orings, and believe the kit fixed the issue not the o-rings. 

My take on this, the oil "feed" kits actually tap into the low pressure system and supposedly feed into the high pressure system. Given that the low pressure is less than the high pressure, whats actually most likely to be happening is you bleeding off hp oil back into the lp system so in effect are reducing the oil supply in the HP system (crank as well as cams) in reality it probably has little effect given the pump should have enough capacity to cope. But the kits are nothing more than pointless bling.

Suzuki designed the engine and are pretty switched on, Im pretty sure if a few banjos and  some pipe made an improvement to the oil system they would come from the factory like that.

Regarding the stud size causing a restriction, have a look at how big the hole is in the oil jet where the barrels meet the crank case, all the oil to the top end goes through those, and im sure if it gets through that ok, it will get up past the studs fine (just make sure the o-rings at the top leave a gap round the studs)

I have a pretty good idea how it all works, but if im in doubt I just look at the setup suzuki went with on their race bikes, if anything worked better it would be on them.

Regarding oil supply for your turbo, i found it easier to use carb jets tapped into the banjo on the take off, I start fairly big, so turbo smokes a bit and downsize in small increments until it stops, then take the return pipe of and run it check theres oil going through the turbo. Never had a problem, not all turbos are the same.

Thats my input anyway 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by MeanBean49

[mick-ne]

10 hours ago, MeanBean49 said:

Its funny, I was following that FB thread too, and if you get into it, the person saying top end oiling kit fixed their issues, actually failed to mention that they had previously also trapped the oil o-ring washers on top of the studs, which is what actually caused the issue, they fitted the oiling kit the same time they sorted the orings, and believe the kit fixed the issue not the o-rings. 

My take on this, the oil "feed" kits actually tap into the low pressure system and supposedly feed into the high pressure system. Given that the low pressure is less than the high pressure, whats actually most likely to be happening is you bleeding off hp oil back into the lp system so in effect are reducing the oil supply in the HP system (crank as well as cams) in reality it probably has little effect given the pump should have enough capacity to cope. But the kits are nothing more than pointless bling.

Suzuki designed the engine and are pretty switched on, Im pretty sure if a few banjos and  some pipe made an improvement to the oil system they would come from the factory like that.

Regarding the stud size causing a restriction, have a look at how big the hole is in the oil jet where the barrels meet the crank case, all the oil to the top end goes through those, and im sure if it gets through that ok, it will get up past the studs fine (just make sure the o-rings at the top leave a gap round the studs)

I have a pretty good idea how it all works, but if im in doubt I just look at the setup suzuki went with on their race bikes, if anything worked better it would be on them.

Regarding oil supply for your turbo, i found it easier to use carb jets tapped into the banjo on the take off, I start fairly big, so turbo smokes a bit and downsize in small increments until it stops, then take the return pipe of and run it check theres oil going through the turbo. Never had a problem, not all turbos are the same.

Thats my input anyway 

 

Out of interest Rob what size restrictor did you use with VF23 I am running that Turbo I got off you on my build .Thanks

[MeanBean49]

5 minutes ago, mick-ne said:

Out of interest Rob what size restrictor did you use with VF23 I am running that Turbo I got off you on my build .Thanks

100 size mikuni main jet i ended up with

[mick-ne]

8 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said:

100 size mikuni main jet i ended up with

Thanks for that, did you run a check valve in the supply line

[MeanBean49]

6 minutes ago, mick-ne said:

Thanks for that, did you run a check valve in the supply line

Nope, prefered to have a brief moment of smoke on startup to let me know o had oil to the turbo

[rerb]

On 1/11/2021 at 3:23 AM, MeanBean49 said:

Its funny, I was following that FB thread too, and if you get into it, the person saying top end oiling kit fixed their issues, actually failed to mention that they had previously also trapped the oil o-ring washers on top of the studs, which is what actually caused the issue, they fitted the oiling kit the same time they sorted the orings, and believe the kit fixed the issue not the o-rings. 

My take on this, the oil "feed" kits actually tap into the low pressure system and supposedly feed into the high pressure system. Given that the low pressure is less than the high pressure, whats actually most likely to be happening is you bleeding off hp oil back into the lp system so in effect are reducing the oil supply in the HP system (crank as well as cams) in reality it probably has little effect given the pump should have enough capacity to cope. But the kits are nothing more than pointless bling.

Suzuki designed the engine and are pretty switched on, Im pretty sure if a few banjos and  some pipe made an improvement to the oil system they would come from the factory like that.

Regarding the stud size causing a restriction, have a look at how big the hole is in the oil jet where the barrels meet the crank case, all the oil to the top end goes through those, and im sure if it gets through that ok, it will get up past the studs fine (just make sure the o-rings at the top leave a gap round the studs)

I have a pretty good idea how it all works, but if im in doubt I just look at the setup suzuki went with on their race bikes, if anything worked better it would be on them.

Regarding oil supply for your turbo, i found it easier to use carb jets tapped into the banjo on the take off, I start fairly big, so turbo smokes a bit and downsize in small increments until it stops, then take the return pipe of and run it check theres oil going through the turbo. Never had a problem, not all turbos are the same.

Thats my input anyway 

 

Aha, that'll do it! thanks for the turbo advice too, sounds like a solid method