MeanBean49 Posted January 14, 2019 Posted January 14, 2019 Wish my legs would grow hair to shave off. Haha 1 Quote
mikeyd Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Gixer1460 said: Nothing hidden - all was visible for all to see! Nothing bling, and nothing there that didn't serve a purpose! It's not a competition bike - if you read the statement correctly - its a STREET BIKE ie. MOT'd, Tax'd and Tested - when i'm bothered! And the last statement proves you don't know it and that it is still running without any replacement parts although it is currently not in max. output configuration! My bike without them = squeaky cams. But only needed with aftermarket studs and overbore where it cuts into oil passage on the cases. Quote
MeanBean49 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 4 hours ago, mikeyd said: My bike without them = squeaky cams. But only needed with aftermarket studs and overbore where it cuts into oil passage on the cases. Cant see how a rocker cover one has helped, placebo effect. Taking oil pressure away can't improve cam supply. Unless you are taking the feed from the oil gallery plug at the bottom to get the oil supply that cant go past the studs anymore, that isnt an increase though, just a re-routing of the oilway to the cams Quote
mikeyd Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 Next time I go to my storage unit I will take pictures of the $600 billet web cams that got destroyed because I didn't think I needed it before either. Theories are interesting, but I have never seen anyone install then remove a top end oiler kit because it failed or damaged the cams/head. 1 Quote
Gixer1460 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 Consider this ...... All of the oil cooled family and most of the air cooled ones have crankcase fitted restriction jets fitted - pressure before probably 80 psi, after maybe 30 - 40psi. This is all a plain bearing requires to work properly. Due to this restriction and the 'up the stud' transfer method, i'd guess it would take a matter of seconds for oil to arrive at the cams - they rely on surface film of oil to prevent / minimise metal to metal contact. Now, 4 psi pressure has been quoted in the cooling circuit which as it is independent of the 'pressure circuit' flows unrestricted and reaches the head far quicker - I believe its pressure to be higher, volume certainly is, which when restricted by the cooling jets over the combustion chambers must increase its local pressure by an amount? So there may be no significant effect, but any oil that gets to my cams a) quickly and b) with some pressure behind it, is ok by me! And if you are curious, I have 85mm bores and a +5mm stroke crank and still run oil up the studs - secrets, secrets! Quote
dupersunc Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, mikeyd said: Next time I go to my storage unit I will take pictures of the $600 billet web cams that got destroyed because I didn't think I needed it before either. Theories are interesting, but I have never seen anyone install then remove a top end oiler kit because it failed or damaged the cams/head. Those web cams are drag race kit. designed to last a couple of seasons running. So about 15 miles... If the cam geometry's wrong no amount of oil will save them. Quote
MeanBean49 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said: Consider this ...... All of the oil cooled family and most of the air cooled ones have crankcase fitted restriction jets fitted - pressure before probably 80 psi, after maybe 30 - 40psi. This is all a plain bearing requires to work properly. Due to this restriction and the 'up the stud' transfer method, i'd guess it would take a matter of seconds for oil to arrive at the cams - they rely on surface film of oil to prevent / minimise metal to metal contact. Now, 4 psi pressure has been quoted in the cooling circuit which as it is independent of the 'pressure circuit' flows unrestricted and reaches the head far quicker - I believe its pressure to be higher, volume certainly is, which when restricted by the cooling jets over the combustion chambers must increase its local pressure by an amount? So there may be no significant effect, but any oil that gets to my cams a) quickly and b) with some pressure behind it, is ok by me! And if you are curious, I have 85mm bores and a +5mm stroke crank and still run oil up the studs - secrets, secrets! The total size of the holes in the rocker cover "jets" equate to pretty much the same size as the feed hose diameter so its effectively just an open line, also the oil pump does not drain when not turning, so there is instant oil pressure/flow to the cams the instant the engine turns. Those lower pressure cam links make no difference whatsoever. An oil pump does not generate pressure at all, it generated flow/volume, so no matter what the restricion in the lines is the amount of oil at the end of the line will be exactly the same, it is not slowed down or the volume reduced unless somthing bleeds it off, ie the pressure relief valve, and as far as I am aware on startup and at low revs even when cold not enough pressure is generated to open it. What does affect the supply to the cams is putting a line in before them that allows high pressure oil to bleed off into a low pressure line. And when an engine is cold and the oil is thicker and at low revs you risk getting a lower pressure feed to the crank and cams by bleeding it off into the rocker jets. Yes the pump probably has the spare capacity to make up for the extra flow required in the HP oil system and it will never really make much difference, but your kidding yourself if you think theres any benefit. Im pretty sure the old yoshimura factory race bikes would have had top end oil kits if there was any benefit from having such a simple and cheap mod. Edited January 15, 2019 by MeanBean49 Quote
Buzuki Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) - Any mixing of low pressure cyl.head oil cooling system with high pressure lubrication system is Wrong , at least from simple reason that oil from cyl.head oil cooling loop is Not filtered , so any dirt or small metal pieces can unrestricted to reach both cams lobes and cams journals and can cause serious damage . - IMO best way to achieve filtered full oil supply to cams and rocker arms is to have one separate external oil line per each side of engine , which connects crankshaft main oil gallery to cyl.head four side bolts , but there man have to be careful when choosing internal diameter of these oil lines (pipes) , to big internal diameter will cause reduced oil pressure on crank shaft bearings, any way after this mod measuring for correct oil pressure in the main oil gallery is one very very obligatory and Important step. - just measured holes diameter of two oil jets (14S) which directly determines oil amount for camshafts /rocker arms lubrication on 750R slaby , each oil jet have just four 1mm hole , which IMO pretty much restrict correct oil feed compared just with four rocker arms holes where each hole have 1,4mm dia. intended for beam spraying and lubrication of cam lobes , IMO those restriction oil jets deserve at least one or two more 1mm hole to be drilled to get less oil feed restriction to camshafts/rocker-arms. - IMO by engine assembly special care have to taken to good sealing around oil channel in cyl.block(red arrows) , any internal oil leak in direction to crankshaft can cause reduced amount of already reduced oil feed directed to cyl.head lubrication loop. -btw , just for example very high reving ZXR400L have just one external oil hose dedicated for lubrication of two camshaft and 16 rocker-arms which connect main oil gallery with cyl.head. Edited January 15, 2019 by Buzuki Quote
Gixer1460 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 I think we all should just agree to disagree and do whatever the hell we want to do! Please note that 'I' have never claimed they are good or bad, just that I have them fitted and that they have done no damage to my motor. If you do not want to fit them - don't and leave it at that! 2 Quote
no class Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 Bible says oil cooling circuit 72psi / lubrication circuit 101 psi. Quote
jonny1bump Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 4:48 PM, riversbikes said: Considering buying a top end oiling kit for my track/race Bandit 1200. Something from Holeshot performance on this side of the pond... question though -- is it necessary? The bike will be run 5-6 weekends a year, with the odd weekend as "hot" -- 30+ degrees C. Track sessions are between 20-30 minutes long, and aside from a stint during an endurance race of at the most, 40-45 minutes, the bike won't be ridden hard for any great length of time. I already have an aftermarket oil cooler installed, and the bike is otherwise stock aside from carbs and exhaust. I like the idea of extra lubrication where needed as a preventative measure, but as usual the interweb opinions are divided on whether the modification is useful on even highly tuned engines. Thoughts??? See what you started. 1 Quote
Buzuki Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, no class said: Bible says oil cooling circuit 72psi / lubrication circuit 101 psi. OK, but It will be also good to know on which crankshaft RPM ? Quote
Buzuki Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Gixer1460 said: I think we all should just agree to disagree and do whatever the hell we want to do! Please note that 'I' have never claimed they are good or bad, just that I have them fitted and that they have done no damage to my motor. If you do not want to fit them - don't and leave it at that! Of course that I will Never fit those bypass oil hoses Quote
no class Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, Buzuki said: OK, but It will be also good to know on which crankshaft RPM ? It states at max pressure ( relief valve psi crack ). Rpm .... would need to hook up a gauge and test . Quote
MeanBean49 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, no class said: Bible says oil cooling circuit 72psi / lubrication circuit 101 psi. Pretty sure those figures are way off, iirc 45-85psi for lubrication oil, does drop a bit by time it reaches cams 1-2psi for the cooling circuit because it has no restriction to generate any pressure, cooling oil is no good at high pressure, needs to be low pressure high volume. Quote
mikeyd Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, no class said: Bible says oil cooling circuit 72psi / lubrication circuit 101 psi. Any benefit to using a bandit 1200 oil pump since they are now high/high pressure compared to high/low Gsxr? Will it help oil cooling? And is it even compatible ? 1 Quote
mikeyd Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 6 hours ago, Buzuki said: - IMO by engine assembly special care have to taken to good sealing around oil channel in cyl.block(red arrows) , any internal oil leak in direction to crankshaft can cause reduced amount of already reduced oil feed directed to cyl.head lubrication loop. Genius! Wondering if that could of been a problem for me when using a thick copper gasket. 6 hours ago, Buzuki said: -btw , just for example very high reving ZXR400L have just one external oil hose dedicated for lubrication of two camshaft and 16 rocker-arms which connect main oil gallery with cyl.head. Does it take less oil/lubrication when it is shim under bucket compared to rocker head? Quote
MeanBean49 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 49 minutes ago, mikeyd said: Any benefit to using a bandit 1200 oil pump since they are now high/high pressure compared to high/low Gsxr? Will it help oil cooling? And is it even compatible ? Same oil pump. Both sides are the same output. Pump only creates flow not pressure, it the restriction in the system and relief valve operating pressure that create oil system pressure. Quote
Buzuki Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mikeyd said: Genius! Wondering if that could of been a problem for me when using a thick copper gasket. Does it take less oil/lubrication when it is shim under bucket compared to rocker head? - It depends directly from how much that cooper gasket surface is flat and smooth , in any case thin layer of quality silicone assembly kit need to be added all around of that oil channel , both between engine block and gasket and also between gasket and cyl.block , this job with silicone kit have to be done very quickly since about after half of hour that silicone become normally rubber hard . - No big difference between ZXR 400L engine and GSXR oil cooled engine when oil/lubrication need is , only difference is that by ZXR400L engine one cam lobe via one rocker-arm activate just one valve which have just one valve spring , at least I can say that ZXR cam lobes however is less loaded than GSXR cam lobes where one cam lobe activate pair of valves with two pair of valve springs . edit ,ZXR engine do not use valve buckets . Edited January 15, 2019 by Buzuki Quote
no class Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, MeanBean49 said: Pretty sure those figures are way off, iirc 45-85psi for lubrication oil, does drop a bit by time it reaches cams 1-2psi for the cooling circuit because it has no restriction to generate any pressure, cooling oil is no good at high pressure, needs to be low pressure high volume. this is from the Suzuki service manual for gsxr 1100 89-92 . I am assuming these are max / cracking pressure figures ? Edited January 15, 2019 by no class Quote
MeanBean49 Posted January 15, 2019 Posted January 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, no class said: this is from the Suzuki service manual for gsxr 1100 89-92 . I am assuming these are max / cracking pressure figures ? Relief valve operating figures, not system pressure 1 Quote
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