GSX1100 EFE hydraulic clutch conversion

[Pedda]

Oh... wrong side. Wait a minute. 

[Pedda]

[Dezza]

5 hours ago, Pedda said:

Several ways of conversions to be found here:

http://www.katana-treff.de/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=444

German katana site. Best option is the full hydraulic conversion imho. 

What is German for 'the conversion made the clutch action lighter' and 'the conversion did not make the clutch action lighter'? It looks a nice bike but personally going to all that effort I would need to know if it worked or not first. The owner of that bike had better not ride through a load of gravel or the engine isn't going to like it one bit

[Dezza]

Anyway, I rode my bike earlier today and to me there is not one bit of difference to when it had a cable operated clutch.

[Reinhoud]

It's not lighter because you have the same lever, so it still makes the same stroke.

 

I copied one from a Bandit, and build that on my GS1000, and that works lighter.

[Gixer1460]

1 hour ago, Reinhoud said:

It's not lighter because you have the same lever, so it still makes the same stroke.

 

I copied one from a Bandit, and build that on my GS1000, and that works lighter.

How can it be the same lever? One is cable, one is hydraulic! The master / slave ratio is the determinant

[Dezza]

2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

How can it be the same lever? One is cable, one is hydraulic! The master / slave ratio is the determinant

Yep, the ratio of the new set up must be similar or the same as that to the original cable operated mechanism.

 

The bits I fitted were explicitly described as lightening the clutch action of existing cable operated clutches, and even lightening the clutch action on an EFE engine as wrtitten in the PS article that probably everyone who is reading this is now familiar. The Venhill set up (if it actually worked as described) has a number of advantages of fitting a system that works via a rod through the gearbox shaft with a GSXR or (as in the German pic) an old style Ducati slave cylinder, such as ease of returning the bike to standard, and being able to use the same parts on different machines. Personally I  prefer the simplest approach but sometimes problems cannot be solved simply. I will probably go back to the stock cable as I can use the m/c for another bike I am building and try the slave thingy on something else. What I would like to try is some sort of geared mechanism in a clutch perch that takes a cable but I have never seem such an item.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Dezza

[bluedog59]

Have you looked at CRG GP clutch levers ? Somebody has actually got patents registered for a geared lever assembly.

[Dezza]

41 minutes ago, bluedog59 said:

Have you looked at CRG GP clutch levers ? Somebody has actually got patents registered for a geared lever assembly.

Looks interesting. Maybe it has interchangable leverage ratios rather than being geared as such (like in a Meccano set motor if you see what I mean). It also costs a fortune but not that much more than buying all of the Venhill stuff.

 

This looks interesting although it is not clear if you get the whole unit or just the lever. If it's fake (likely) it may still be fine - I have bought many Yamaha parts from Thailand and Indonesia and they have been really good.

 

http://www.Eblag.co.uk/itm/CRG-GPC-100-GP-Black-Clutch-Perch-Lever-Silver/152514011101?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D43782%26meid%3D2648cac78686495fbac4492c2bc02fa2%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D152514011101

Edited May 25, 2017 by Dezza

[Gixer1460]

Gotta say the 'cheap' one look like a bloody good rip off imitation! For £60 its got to be worth a punt - the pivot adjustment stated on the 'real' one is huge - nearly 10mm - that should make a considerable difference in feel?

[robsonthejob]

Hi - I got away with 3 strong and 3 standard springs alternating pattern obviously, much more usable and its not slipped - touch wood.

[Reinhoud]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:12 AM, Gixer1460 said:

How can it be the same lever? One is cable, one is hydraulic! The master / slave ratio is the determinant

You need to change the travel, if you keep that the same, it won't go any lighter.

When you make the clutch pressure plate travel less far, your clutch will go lighter, that's what I mean.

And the travel is related to the diameter of the master and the slave cylinder.

You can calculate is through the diameters of both cylinders, but calculating via travel goes easier and quicker and the results are the same.

 

So again, if your pressure plate has the same amount of travels as before, it won't go any easier.

 

I converted my clutch to hydraulic, I did my homework.  

[jimbo22]

On 5/25/2017 at 0:04 AM, Dezza said:

Anyway, I rode my bike earlier today and to me there is not one bit of difference to when it had a cable operated clutch.

and are You sure that the rod in the engine cover isn't giving You any uneccesary resistance? does it work light? bearings fresh?

[Dezza]

3 hours ago, Reinhoud said:

You need to change the travel, if you keep that the same, it won't go any lighter.

When you make the clutch pressure plate travel less far, your clutch will go lighter, that's what I mean.

And the travel is related to the diameter of the master and the slave cylinder.

You can calculate is through the diameters of both cylinders, but calculating via travel goes easier and quicker and the results are the same.

 

So again, if your pressure plate has the same amount of travels as before, it won't go any easier.

 

I converted my clutch to hydraulic, I did my homework.  

Maybe it's a language thing but without any detail your post  reads as condescending

[Reinhoud]

18 hours ago, Dezza said:

Maybe it's a language thing but without any detail your post  reads as condescending

Why? I give details, I tell why.   Why is my post condescending, and the post I replied to not?

[Dezza]

3 hours ago, Reinhoud said:

Why? I give details, I tell why.   Why is my post condescending, and the post I replied to not?

Maybe crossed wires here - there seems to be a conflation of different points earlier so you are right that your comment to the previous post was innocuous.

[Gixer1460]

13 hours ago, Reinhoud said:

You need to change the travel, if you keep that the same, it won't go any lighter.

When you make the clutch pressure plate travel less far, your clutch will go lighter, that's what I mean.

And the travel is related to the diameter of the master and the slave cylinder.

You can calculate is through the diameters of both cylinders, but calculating via travel goes easier and quicker and the results are the same.

So again, if your pressure plate has the same amount of travels as before, it won't go any easier.

I converted my clutch to hydraulic, I did my homework.  

I disagree with the 1st point - pushing an incorrect master cylinder piston 1/2" or 1" won't make the clutch springs any easier to compress! To do that, the master cylinder bore requires changing....... that will mean more or less fluid transfer. Then you correct the lever ratio more or less to move sufficient fluid @ increased pressure to push on the springs, so giving a lighter feel - the clutch cover will still only move the same amount.

I believe the OP set-up will require a smaller master cyl. bore to increase line pressure and a lever with a greater stroke to move the reduced fluid capacity. The lever is the hardest thing as unless its like the 'high end - multiple adjustables' like the one above, most have a fixed lever ratio to suit the 'average' rider.

[Reinhoud]

On 5/26/2017 at 11:04 AM, Gixer1460 said:

I disagree with the 1st point - pushing an incorrect master cylinder piston 1/2" or 1" won't make the clutch springs any easier to compress! To do that, the master cylinder bore requires changing....... that will mean more or less fluid transfer. Then you correct the lever ratio more or less to move sufficient fluid @ increased pressure to push on the springs, so giving a lighter feel - the clutch cover will still only move the same amount.

I believe the OP set-up will require a smaller master cyl. bore to increase line pressure and a lever with a greater stroke to move the reduced fluid capacity. The lever is the hardest thing as unless its like the 'high end - multiple adjustables' like the one above, most have a fixed lever ratio to suit the 'average' rider.

Read again what you wrote, you write down what I said, if you change the diameter of the cylinders, you also change the travel.

 

It's all about the ratio of travel travel between lever on handle bars and travel of the clutch pressure plate, in what way you change the travel doesn't matter.

 

I've had a discussion regarding this one time, both stubborn, both had our own way, so I started calculating, in the end we both were right. 

The difference was that we had a different way to get to the end result.

 

When TS wants his clutch to go lighter, he has to make sure his pressure plate travels less far, if he does that by putting a longer lever on the control on the clutch cover, or different size master or slave cylinder doesn't matter.

 

If you don't believe, just start calculating.

[Reinhoud]

I did some calculating when I did my conversion, I have duty spring and I put them in with spacers, real tight,went real heavy!!

So, I bought a master cylinder from a Bandit 1250 and a slave from a Bandit 1200, did some calculations, according to my calculations the clutch should go half as heavy...

I also calculated how heavy the clutch would/should go when cable operated, the only thing I didn't know how to calculate, of was sure of if it would matter is the from rotating to linear conversion.

 

The clutch went lighter indeed, by feel it could indeed be about half of before.

 

So, I ended up in a discussion with someone, and then you get that moment, I just have to know, not to prove you're right, but just to know how it goes, the physics of it..

So, back into the shed with my calculator ruler and vernier.

 

Turns out that the pressure plate came out only 3mm when hydraulic, instead of the over 6 mm when cable operated.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Reinhoud

[Reinhoud]

17 hours ago, Reinhoud said:

 

Something didn't go as planned....

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Reinhoud

[Reinhoud]

On 5/26/2017 at 11:04 AM, Gixer1460 said:

I disagree with the 1st point - pushing an incorrect master cylinder piston 1/2" or 1" won't make the clutch springs any easier to compress! To do that, the master cylinder bore requires changing....... that will mean more or less fluid transfer. Then you correct the lever ratio more or less to move sufficient fluid @ increased pressure to push on the springs, so giving a lighter feel - the clutch cover will still only move the same amount.

I believe the OP set-up will require a smaller master cyl. bore to increase line pressure and a lever with a greater stroke to move the reduced fluid capacity. The lever is the hardest thing as unless its like the 'high end - multiple adjustables' like the one above, most have a fixed lever ratio to suit the 'average' rider.

You're not wrong! But you make it more complicated than it is. That's probably not the right way to say it, you can get there "in a different way".

 

I hope you get what I mean.

[Duckndive]

For what its worth I did a thru the box hyd conversion on an efe many moons ago only to find it was not a lot better.. "looked go though"  

as has been suggested a lock up and lighter springs may be the way to go....

On the blue turbo efe I ran a lock up with just 3 springs ...clutch was light and a one finger pull.....never had any slip issues .....

[Dezza]

15 hours ago, Duckndive said:

For what its worth I did a thru the box hyd conversion on an efe many moons ago only to find it was not a lot better.. "looked go though"  

as has been suggested a lock up and lighter springs may be the way to go....

On the blue turbo efe I ran a lock up with just 3 springs ...clutch was light and a one finger pull.....never had any slip issues .....

Many thanks for this info. How is the lock-up clutch fitted? I assume a new clutch cover is needed.

 

Both cable operated clutches and hydraulic clutches have the same lever movement. A particular clutch has to move the operating rod/gear a certain distance to fully disengage the clutch, so for it to work properly, unless a geared lever is used for a cable operation, then the feel at the lever has to be the same unless fewer or lighter springs are fitted. This seems the logic behind why the lock-up clutch is lighter as it has only 3 springs but a lock-up mechanism to stop it slipping.

[Duckndive]

1 hour ago, Dezza said:

Many thanks for this info. How is the lock-up clutch fitted? I assume a new clutch cover is needed.

If you buy a complete kit it will come with a spacer so you can use the stock cover ...but trick aftermarket covers are available  "not cheep"

"Suggestion" why not take 3 springs out and see if the pull is what you are looking for before shelling out more £££

 

[Dezza]

Bugger - that isn't going to fit my bike as my engine is in a Harris Magnum 2 frame and the frame rail is too close to the clutch cover to enable it to be moved outwards. As a matter of interest, where do you get the lock up kits from and how much do they cost?