Turbo bandit

[luke2152]

Hello all. I'm new here. Have had a good look through the forum already (it's brilliant) hopefully I don't ask any bone questions....anyway have just brought a bandit 1200 with the intention of turbo charging it. I want to just enjoy riding it this summer while gathering parts for the winter project. So here's what I'm thinking:  *turbo manifold + plenum +downpipe fabricated

*td04 turbo from subaru as they can be had for peanuts, reasonably small and I have one in my kit car (so makes it interchangeable)

*no intercooler if I can get away with it. Might consider water/methanol injection

*gsxr 600 throttle bodies and microsquirt efI as I really dislike carbs and have a bit of experience with Ms

*injectors hopefully cheaply acquired off something common with 4 wheels

*something to drop the CR. Either bore and use hayabusa pistons or use head spacer.

*suitable clutch

So firstly would like to know if this seems like a sensible setup and or where I'm going wrong.

Secondly what's the score with lock up clutches. Having never looked at one closely it would seem that when the flyweight swing out at high rpm and do their magic it would prevent you pulling the clutch in making rev matched downshifts impossible. Or am I completely misguided here. Could I just use heavy springs instead and deal with a wrist workout?

Thirdly opinions on those two methods to drop CR. Some have said hayabusa pistons while others say a head spacer. Or both! Or neither (for a mild setup)

Opinions, suggestions and outright abuse all graciously accepted.

[CossiEst]

Hi there. You have done your homework correctly, stuff you are writing is correct (because i have the same setup, and it's proven to work)

Dropping the CR is strongly recommended and using forged pistons (busa) Some say that you can run stock engine up to 12psi, but better safe than sorry. So I would go with busa pistons and rebore to 1216. If you use busa pistons then you dont need to use a spacer under the barrels, because the pistons are lower than standard ones.

Standard blandit diaghpram type clutch won't hold much more than 150-160 whp, so either gsxr coil type conversion or lockup. I installed lockup, it holds great so far (at 6psi) feels just like standard ,easy to pull clutch, but it won't disengage above 6500 rpm

Sorry but I know nothing about efi conversions

Btw i'm no oil-cooled/turbo genius, just the info i have been gathering over the past year of ''homework'' and 2 months riding a boosted bandit

 

 

[wombat258]

If you are having problems disengaging the lockup clutch you have too much weight on the arms. I run an aluminium capscrew and nut only on each arm, and have springs at standard installed height. Running 240 hp and can still pull in the clutch (with effort).

[Gixer1460]

Agreed - minimal weight will hold loads - 10mm M6 SS cap screw and nyloc x4 ok with 370hp and disengagement was fine!

Std. lentgh and poundage springs are fine - the lock up takes care of the rest. H/Duty springs are heavy in the fingers and a turbo will usually blow through them anyway!

[luke2152]

That sounds a bit better than i feared wombat. Just cos the faq's page for mtc lock up clutches says you should avoid/may not be able to pull in the clutch at high speed/rpm and doing so could damage it.  Perhaps they are being overly cautious or just talking about a setup with heavy weights?  I want to ride on the road and track. No desire to go drag racing therefore having use of the clutch at high speed/rpm is important to me. Other option I'm looking at is convert to gsxr 750 clutch and HD springs which won't be massively cheaper than a lockup but keeps it conventional. Will it handle moderate boost is the question...

[Arttu]

I'm not expert on oil cooled engines but I have understood that properly prepped diaghpram clutch can hold some serious power too. I think typical solution is to use two springs and it should be good for maybe +250hp and still be quite ok for fingers.

For the EFI both Microsquirt and GSX-R600 TBs are good choices. Injector selection dpends on your power target. For 250-300hp I would use something from 500-700cc range. One important choice is ignition, if you are going to control it with the ECU or not. If you are going to use the Microsquirt for ignition too then some extra stuff is needed for crank triggering and coils.

 

[luke2152]

Yes I will have the ms control the ignition. Was thinking get a trigger wheel made to suit stock vr sensor although idealy I'd want a cam sensor as well so I don't have to run wasted spark.

I had heard stock diaphragm clutch is poo and extra spring only improves it a little but be happy to stand corrected.  Happy side of 200bhp is my goal so not too extreme

Edited June 2, 2016 by luke2152

[Arttu]

19 hours ago, luke2152 said:

Yes I will have the ms control the ignition. Was thinking get a trigger wheel made to suit stock vr sensor although idealy I'd want a cam sensor as well so I don't have to run wasted spark.

I wouldn't bother with cam sensor just for sequential ignition. Most likely benefits are minimal and it takes some serious effort get a sensor properly installed. Wasted spark with proper coils works just fine in most of the cases. Custom wheel with stock VR sensor should be fine too. I would suggest 24-2 pattern if you are going to get the wheel done for your specs. It seems to provide enough resolution and you get larger tooth size than for example with 36-1 pattern. 

[luke2152]

Well I've made a little progress starting with converting the fuel tank to take EFI pump (from a z750).

[luke2152]

Need a clutch pushrod just discovered I don't even have one in there - the long one of the two that actually fits on the clutch side.  Not the 80mm one on the clutch cylinder side.  Anyone know what other ones will fit as there are no b12 ones on Eblag at this moment.

[Jaydee]

16 hours ago, luke2152 said:

Need a clutch pushrod just discovered I don't even have one in there - the long one of the two that actually fits on the clutch side.  Not the 80mm one on the clutch cylinder side.  Anyone know what other ones will fit as there are no b12 ones on Eblag at this moment.

Easiest thing to do is enter the part no. on eblag. There's a huge amount of Suzuki's that use this same part in their clutches. GSX1100G, TL1000, 14/15 Intruders, some years of K series gsxr 600/750/1000 etc. all share the same part. 

Bandit 1200-  23110-38B00

I think the 1127 rod is different in length slightly.  ( 23110-27A00) as it too is used in a host of other models of Suzuki, such as other years of K series etc. So be careful which one you order. 

[mick-ne]

Will that Fuel pump deliver enough for turbo use ?

[luke2152]

I'm using a stock z750 pump for now (purely because it cost me £20).  I suspect it delivers more than required on the kwaka but it will probably not be up to a turbo.   I'm going to get the efi side of things sorted before I do the turbo.  So if the z750 one struggles as it probably will I'll try and mount something more high performance in the kwaka housing.

Edited June 26, 2016 by luke2152

[luke2152]

Have another question - I have some gsxr 600 throttle bodies that I have respaced to fit the bandit rubbers but they are 38mm and the bandit 36mm so would the rubbers from a gsxr 750 or 1100 oiler (with 38mm carbs) have the correct spacing?  I reckon I could get the throttle bodies in with a bit of heat and a lot of swearing but would rather not have to force them in.

Edit:  Bloody hell carb rubbers cost more than I paid for throttle bodies.  I'll have a go at them with a hairdryer and KY jelly

Edited June 26, 2016 by luke2152

[FJD]

lube the rubbers with some grease or silicon spray, should work

[luke2152]

Have the throttle bodies fitted.  Just took a bit of heat, sweat and KY jelly.  Have ripped every wire off the bike and starting again because the previous owner bodged some wiring up.  Injectors are from an rx8 car and pencil coils from an r6.  Rewiring it all for EFI with microsquit.  There's a lot more wires than I realised....

[luke2152]

I have a question regarding alternator wiring.  It has 2 wires connected to it.  They haynes manual suggests one is the exciter and the other the output but neither look like they can handle more than 10A.  There is a big terminal connector on alternator - haynes says its earth but I have a feeling its not as:

1. The output must be 40A or so

2.  The whole alternator is already earthed.

So is this terminal supposed to be connected to battery positive?

 

[Gixer1460]

Nope! One should be Red fairly H/Duty 20A cable, the other should be Orange, again fairly HD. Red to battery +, Orange to Ign. sw. from memory.

[luke2152]

I have red/white and yellow/black.  Colours seem to change with each year.  So the rear one (yellow/black) to ign and front one (red/white) to battery?  If someone could confirm definitely.  Thanks

[wombat258]

With the Denso 40 amp alternator power supply to the battery is the M6 stud and nut to the right. The connector you have shown should be orange to ignition (senses the battery voltage) and red if used is only for an indicator light on the dash.

[slingy1157]

21 minutes ago, wombat258 said:

With the Denso 40 amp alternator power supply to the battery is the M6 stud and nut to the right. The connector you have shown should be orange to ignition (senses the battery voltage) and red if used is only for an indicator light on the dash.

Yep, thats how i did mine. Stud to battery or starter solenoid battery side. Then black yellow to ignition 

[Gixer1460]

Ah so completely different to the GSXR then - bloody OEM changing stuff!

[luke2152]

Well I've been trying to test my fuel system - for leaks mostly.  I'm using gsxr 600 fuel rail which I've cut in half and joined with threaded pipe and nuts to get the spacing right.  It leaked a bit so I had to solder the threads on the nuts but now leak free.  Fuel pressure regulator from an mx5 fits right on.  The z750 pump seems to have an internal bypass on it which isn't bad thing but I can't test it flow rate under load as it just recirculates in the tank.  On the plus side it only draws 2A current which is good for the electrical system.

[Gixer1460]

If the pump has a built in regulator an additional regulator fitting on the fuel rail is surplus to requirements - the pump is designed to work with dead headed injectors. All can be tested under load - just needs a bit of ingenuity! Take injectors and rail out of the TB's and position over 4 measuring jugs / beakers / jam jars. Connect up 12v to the live common feed wire and connect all the switched earths together and ground them out for 20 or 30 seconds. Measure each jars volume in cc's, then add all together, then multiply by 3 or 2 - depending on whether test was 20 or 30 seconds. That gives total flow / minute. Most systems are maximum 80% injector duty so take 80% of your per minute flow and see if it matches or exceeds your required flow for hp expected. Plus if any individual amount varies by 5% get them cleaned - shouldn't vary be more than 1% for accurate fueling!

[luke2152]

Yes I agree that I shouldn't need a pump regulator and one on the rail.  Seems strange though that the pump has a return though.