srad 600 turbo

[gtecomp]

Hello Gents, long not been here,

 

Last winter I've turboed srad 600...very very cheap way

K03 vag turbo

k1 600 throttles with stock injectors

added charge cooler...not the best job, but just in case.

 

And today was the day for dyno....a little disappointing and strange think happend

so results on Mustang car dyno

 

102 hp on wheel

66Nm

0,4bar boost

56 degree advance in boost...aaaa...can you handle this...wtf

 

On street bike rides ok...noooting special.....but genarlly strange. Any comments?

 

 

[Arttu]

Sounds a bit low indeed.

At the first the ignition advance is stupid high. Are you sure it's correct, I mean if the actual advance matches to commanded?

Beyond that it's quite impossible to guess what could be wrong. Do you have a datalog to share from a dyno pull?

[gtecomp]

hallo Artu,

 

Yep I initially checked advance on idle with timing light..I'll do it again. It was interesting when entire tuning/dyno shop gather together to see 50 deg on boost with the bets when engine will explode...but it didn't. Bike rides like stock, almost no noticeable difference

...very very depressed me now   

 

Hm can be something with the cams...I'll never opened a single lid or cover of this engine...bone stock as it is. I wonder if cam is a tooth more or less offset.

Don't know....

[clivegto]

We like pictures. 

[peter1127]

56 advance is way off. Why would you advance while retarding is the logical direction under boost? 

0.4bar is not that much, maybe that's whats needed to reach stock HP if there are restriction issues in plenum/uppipe/chargecooler so you have 0.4 bar of really hot air.

Before going the "more boost" route check first the obvious stuff:

• Ignition timing. Start from stock with couple degrees retard on boost. Safer and should be close. Wouldnt be surprised if current advance causes the power loss, and detonation is not far away. 
• cam timing.  if the engine ran ok before and it wasnt opened, it should be ok
• compression check if the engine ran ok before and it wasnt opened, it should be ok
• fuel pressure: 1:1 or raising rate? If you use an aftermarket ecu you would be better off with 1:1, if its a budget build a raising rate on stock ecu could work. 
• AFR: super lean or super rich? Super rich can look ok or even lean if there are rich misfires. Have a look at the plugs
• Do you use a stock 600 muffler? Maybe too restrictive.
• Are you sure about the  0.4bar boost? Measure on compressor or plenum? Plenum pressure is what matters
• If the charge cooler is restrictive, you might be better off without. One run on the dyno without it will show if it works/doesnt matter/makes it worse

 

Some pictures / dyno graph / detailed list of your setup will help to troubleshoot.

[Gixer1460]

If using a stock ecu, then the ignition could be accurate as the ecu still thinks its NA and this ignition is possible when NA . . . . . . obviously not right for a turbo'd install as its waaaaaaay to advanced for effective burn in a turbo hence low power as all the energy is gone before it hits the turbine! I have used 40 degrees @ 10lbs boost for short periods when racing without drama's so 'odd numbers' can work but i'd question the actual validity of that though!

If standalone ecu - then the mapping isn't right and install needs looking at and checking!

[gtecomp]

1 hour ago, peter1127 said:

56 advance is way off. Why would you advance while retarding is the logical direction under boost? 

0.4bar is not that much, maybe that's whats needed to reach stock HP if there are restriction issues in plenum/uppipe/chargecooler so you have 0.4 bar of really hot air.

Before going the "more boost" route check first the obvious stuff:

• Ignition timing. Start from stock with couple degrees retard on boost. Safer and should be close. Wouldnt be surprised if current advance causes the power loss, and detonation is not far away. 

Ignition advance was raised in 2 deg steps....more then 20 runs 

• cam timing.  if the engine ran ok before and it wasnt opened, it should be ok

okey

• compression check if the engine ran ok before and it wasnt opened, it should be ok

ok

• fuel pressure: 1:1 or raising rate? If you use an aftermarket ecu you would be better off with 1:1, if its a budget build a raising rate on stock ecu could work. 

plenum reference to FPR....think should be 1:1. MaxxECU mini is the ECU.

• AFR: super lean or super rich? Super rich can look ok or even lean if there are rich misfires. Have a look at the plugs

How look the plugs....don't know. I didn't check plugs, since wideband exist. 

• Do you use a stock 600 muffler? Maybe too restrictive.

Stock. Restrictive for sure. Above 10000 rpms boost goes to 0,3bar...backpressure probably.

• Are you sure about the  0.4bar boost? Measure on compressor or plenum? Plenum pressure is what matters

MAP is measured on throttle bodies, so between valves and throttle blade

• If the charge cooler is restrictive, you might be better off without. One run on the dyno without it will show if it works/doesnt matter/makes it worse.

Charge cooler is enormous. It's rated for 600hp

 

Some pictures / dyno graph / detailed list of your setup will help to troubleshoot.

I'll try to dig out.

[Arttu]

6 hours ago, gtecomp said:

Yep I initially checked advance on idle with timing light..I'll do it again. It was interesting when entire tuning/dyno shop gather together to see 50 deg on boost with the bets when engine will explode...but it didn't. Bike rides like stock, almost no noticeable difference

...very very depressed me now  

I recommend to check timing also at higher rpms. For example if you connect a VR crank sensor wrong way around timing can drift quite a lot when rpm changes.

@peter1127listed many good points to check. I would also add checking injectors. If they don't flow evenly some of the cylinders can be lean and others rich while the wideband lambda shows good numbers. Comparing the plugs is good first sanity check, they should look roughly the same at least. Old injectors can easily have all kind issues, especially if they have been stored for any longer period.

[gtecomp]

other interesting fact. I added 10% more fuel on internal cylinders 2&3. We made a couple of runs like that...the I shared this fact the tuner, he removed this cylinder adjustment and after that, the power can't reach same levels. So he return to 10% more in 2&3 cylinders....and so it was mapped that way.

[gtecomp]

16 minutes ago, Arttu said:

I recommend to check timing also at higher rpms. For example if you connect a VR crank sensor wrong way around timing can drift quite a lot when rpm changes.

@peter1127listed many good points to check. I would also add checking injectors. If they don't flow evenly some of the cylinders can be lean and others rich while the wideband lambda shows good numbers. Comparing the plugs is good first sanity check, they should look roughly the same at least. Old injectors can easily have all kind issues, especially if they have been stored for any longer period.

Hall sensor 24-2

[gtecomp]

7 hours ago, gtecomp said:

...I'll never opened a single lid or cover of this engine...bone stock as it is. I

OK -OK I remove the oil pan to weld a bung for turbo drainage 

Edited August 8 by gtecomp

[gtecomp]

ok 'shoot' the timing  - 12deg off......so its not  50deg it's 38 real.

 

Damm 

Good think is that I have low now....obviously I have had an idle at 0 deg and 20 deg at 3000rpm....wondering why bike is such dog till 5000rpm

 

 

Edited August 8 by gtecomp

[gtecomp]

..and what if cut the hose of gate....did the bike survive 15psi 

Edited August 8 by gtecomp

[Gixer1460]

13 hours ago, gtecomp said:

 

 

Don't know if that is a std map or a created one - either way its terrible for both NA or Turbo! Generally all Ign maps start like that one, rise to a peak in the mid range, then drop down to 30 - 38 deg range thereafter. For instance - why would engine require 55 degrees of ign. @ 14k rpm with zero throttle? It would never happen in reality so why map for it? The map should increase in the mid range / cruise condition for max torque / minimal fuel consumption - anywhere above can almost flatline @ a few degrees less!

[gtecomp]

practically only 130-150kPA area mapped from 5000-12000 rpms...other cells are just something 

[gtecomp]

7 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

 For instance - why would engine require 55 degrees of ign. @ 14k rpm with zero throttle? 

standard map do like this...so did I. Why....my suggestion is to prevent ehxaust poping or...-__

 

Anyway what really matter in ignition map is couple of rows...everything else is area that in real life condition where never met.

[gtecomp]

ok I've checked taiming, cams etc

so....that's it....

102 hp on 11000rpm on 0,3bar...4.5psi...600cc sucks

from here:

1. How many boost will this setup handle before con rods goes outside?

2. can I put one more base gasket  0,4mm and to decrease compression to 10.9:1  ?...is this make bike a dead dog till 6000rpm?

Edited August 14 by gtecomp

[Reinhoud]

Advanced the ignition WAY too much. 0.4 bar isn't much, so most likely the ignition doesn't need to be retarded.

Don't expect too much with 0.4 bar.

 

Leave the cam timing stock.

I'm pretty sure you can go to at least 0.7 bar.

 

First set the ignition timing like it came from factory, as long as it doesn't detonate you don't have to retard it. I'm pretty sure you'll gain quiet a bit of power.

Edited August 15 by Reinhoud

[gtecomp]

thanks for advices. It's hard to find SRAD ign mapping as far as this is carbureted bike with 8 bit processor

[Reinhoud]

Don't over think!!! Stay as close to stock as possible. ONLY change when necessary.

[Reinhoud]

Install an O2 sensor with gauge, so you can monitor the air fuel ratio. This takes the guessing out. Don't guess, meassure!!!!!

Keep the ignition timing and cam timing stock. Raise the boost to at least 0.6 bar.

 

Assuming you have pitot tubes in the up-pipe, monitor the AFR with different throttle positions.

Adjust the carburetors with low throttle opening, half / 3/4 throttle opening, and full throttle.  Pilot/Needle jet/main jet

 

ONLY retard the ignition when it suffers detonation, ONLY when you use fuel with the highest octane number available.

A small turbo spools up quick, and you suffer detonation way more as with a bigger turbo, I've learned. I have a VF23 now, and mine doesn't detonate at all, on 95, anymore. With a VF20 it detonateted all the time, even on 98.

 

When you do all this, you should be close to where you want to be.

 

 

[gtecomp]

it's a with stand alone ECU maxecu, so it's a fuel injected...yep I have wide band. 

[Reinhoud]

1 hour ago, gtecomp said:

it's a with stand alone ECU maxecu, so it's a fuel injected...yep I have wide band. 

Ah yeah, after reading it again... Thought you had carburfuckingettors

[Pasis]

Hi!

This is a standard ignition map for  GSX-R 600 k4. I think it can be used as a base. These engines are quite similar.
Do you have a couple of photos of your bike?
I also make a turbo srad, though 750.
By the way, the guys from Australia have a lot of experience in installing turbs on srad 600-750