Sheep Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Okay,i have acquired a good clean set of RS36's to replace my others but i am experiencing a problem with Cylinders 1 and 4 getting wet with fuel. I fitted them once i had replaced the main jets from 140 to 132.5 with no other adjustments.I believe the standard sets come with 130's but after reading Mikuni's site i went with 132.5's due to having a modified exhaust and free flowing filters. Yesterday i ran the bike and it started well but soon dropped to 2 cylinders with fuel leaking from under the carbs.I stopped the engine as it turns out the fuel lines were not tight enough on the intake tubes. Today i decided to bench sync them.I adjusted the floats to 17mm,synced the slides,and gave all the pilot screws a half turn out from fully in.All needles were in the middle groove.I tried them on the bike again but only 2 and 3 ran.1 and 4 downpipes stayed cold enough to hold.I took the plugs out and they were very wet.I dried them with a hot air gun and tried again.No luck...checked the plugs and they were a little damp.I tried for sparks from the Dyna coils and they both sparked.I tried 2 old plugs (the current ones are new) and still no joy and they are still wet.I haven't swapped the 2/3 leads to 1/4 yet to see if it changes as i ran out of time.I may try that tomorrow. I am hoping i have just killed the plugs again with fuel but if anyone else have any suggestion please feel free to shoot them over. Quote Link to comment
Blubber Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Sounds like a coil issue to me. 1 and 4 is a pair, 2 and 3 is the other pair. Swap them over, like you suggested, and I am pretty sure the problem moves or even is solved. Could also be pickup related but coils are more common. Edited January 27, 2016 by Blubber Spelling 1 Quote Link to comment
berty Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Agree with blubber . Similar experience myself years back . Turned out to be wiring problem between dyna pickups and coils . Lt wires were failing at a junction . Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Yes,this was my thoughts too although i am getting a spark from all 4 new Taylor leads and plugs.The bike did run before on all 4 albeit with the wrong size carbs which made me think the coils should be ok.Mind you i have modified the loom during the rebuild but only by shortening and/or removing unwanted wires.The only real mod i made to the coil wires is putting in a 'superseal' waterproof connector inline to aid future maintenance. Is there a correct way the wires connect to the coil because they have no markings on the body? I assumed looking at the Haynes manual they can go on either side just as long as they are paired correctly. When i first started the bike over xmas (on oversize carbs) the original plugs got wet but once i threw a new set in it ran well. I will try the swapping over method and see if that works.I hope the coils are ok because i bought the bike as a project with a list of various quality aftermarket parts but that list is slowly dwindling due to finding out they are non genuine parts or they need replacing due to wear and tear!!! Thanks for the replys guys. Quote Link to comment
Captain Chaos Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 11 hours ago, Sheep said: 5 minutes ago, Sheep said: Is there a correct way the wires connect to the coil because they have no markings on the body? No. You mentioned fuel leaking from under the carbs in your first post. Could be float needles on carbs 1 & 4 leaking, and overfueling those cilinders. 1 Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 I have just this minute finished reading Dynatek website regarding polarity,which there is none lol.... The fuel leaking was due,it seems,from not having a clamp/jubilee clip on the hose.Second time round i fitted them and it all stayed dry but i know where you are coming from.Its another option worth investigating.Thanks. Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just to add,these attempts when starting the bike where without filters if that makes a difference Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Ok...tonight i tried again...i didn't do anything until i put brand new plugs in Cyl 1 and 4 to rule those out.The motor started up straight away but again on 2 and 3 only.Plugs 1 and 4 obviously damp but not soaked.plugs 2 and 3 sooty but dry but this could be down to lots of start stops from cold. I checked all leads and plugs on 1 and 4 for spark,which they do albeit a little white spark,not a fat blue one. I then put the coil for 1 and 4 onto 2 and 3 and it ran on those two cylinders which tells me the coil is fine.Given the fact that the original coil for 2 and 3 has been starting the motor i assume both are fine.I put a meter across the coil terminals and got 03.6 ohms on both.The meter was in the 20 ohm range.I may have used it wrong as i am thick when it comes to ohms and stuff lol So here i am scratching my head.Could it be the igniter unit perhaps because this,and the pick ups,are the only things i'm aware of that control the spark.Can the igniter fail yet give the coil a spark albeit a weak one?..How do i test the igniter because the bit that tells me in the manual has been chewed by the wife's Labrador!!!! I don't want to rule the carbs out just yet but i gave them a good going over before fitting them.I honestly thought the brand new plugs would have fired the motor on all four and then if there was a problem with fuelling on 1 and 4 it would eventually become apparent.Yet it did not start on 1 and 4 from the moment i pressed the button. Aargghhh!!! Quote Link to comment
berty Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Do you have other carbs that you know are good ? If so , swap and try . That will rule out fuelling if 1 and 4 still don't fire . Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Unfortunatly i havn't......i have been doing some internet searching and there could be some truth in the pick up coils failing.This would account for the coil to one pair of cylinders playing up even if it produces a spark.I have read that they degenerate with age/heat etc. I forgot to mention i did put the coil from 2 and 3 to try to get 1 and 4 to fire up but it wouldn't have it. So,its either way too much fuel wetting the plugs (new or old) even before they get a chance to start the motor OR something is stopping one pair of cylinders to fire/spark with enough oomph to burn the fuel....even though i have spark on all four,it seams a weak spark is as good as none at all....i might try a multimeter test in accordance with the manual tomoz. Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Ever get that feeling that someone is looking through he shed door laughing at you while you scratch your head figuring out what's wrong with the bike??? So tonight i had yet another go.I am waiting for a replacement pick up unit to rule that out but in the meantime i had a go at cutting the pick up wires and swapping them around to see if the problem goes to the other two cylinders but no dice...it didn't start...i put them back again as they were originally and it started on 2 and 3 as before. I also swapped coils again but the 'bad' coil was fine so i can rule those out...So i am looking at the pick ups or the amplifier unit possibly.Has anyone had problems with either and if so what are the symptoms? Just one more thing...i noticed the coil feeding 2/3 would 'jump' as i flicked the kill switch on and off.The coil was loosely mounted and it would physically move as the switch turned on and off...the other coil feeding 1/4 did not do this...I tightened its mounting bolts yet i could still feel the body 'energising' as i operated the switch...is this significant???? Any help appreciated guys Quote Link to comment
strima Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sheep said: Just one more thing...i noticed the coil feeding 2/3 would 'jump' as i flicked the kill switch on and off.The coil was loosely mounted and it would physically move as the switch turned on and off...the other coil feeding 1/4 did not do this...I tightened its mounting bolts yet i could still feel the body 'energising' as i operated the switch...is this significant???? Any help appreciated guys Remove the coil, clean all the fixings and securely fit it back into place. This could well be your problem as the coil needs a return path for the magic blue smoke once it has jumped the gap on the plug. Your LT leads could well be fine but the HT also needs a complete circuit for it to work correctly, a weak spark would be caused by this. It's all about primary and secondary winding within the coil. Edited January 29, 2016 by strima Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Cheers bud..i am going to re-crimp all the connections tomorrow on the low side.I will file the paint,if any,on the mounting lugs.HT leads are spanking new...I will post results as soon as i get them. Quote Link to comment
strima Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 A quick check would be to run a length of cable from the coil mounting point to the cylinder head to act as an earth. If this works then you know where the problem lies. If there is paint in the threaded mounting holes just cut a slot along and old bolt and this should take most if not all of the paint out, unless you have the correct size tap. 1 Quote Link to comment
coombehouse Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I did have an issue on my Kat many years ago with the ignition box of tricks. Not like a problem like yours but it was still knackered. It started pumping out random sparks at high revs & making the rev limiter I had fitted cut the motor. I thought it was a clutch problem for ages until I figured it out. I know its not totally relevant but they can fail in strange ways. BTW the pickups that were on the bike are still going strong after 30 years & theres not much to them, just a coil & a magnet. I would image they they would just work or fail completely but thats just a guess. Another suggestion would be to remove the RS36's & go back to original just to try & eliminate the carbs from the equation. Nick Quote Link to comment
Captain Chaos Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 50 minutes ago, coombehouse said: Another suggestion would be to remove the RS36's & go back to original just to try & eliminate the carbs from the equation. +1 After swapping most of the sparky bits the problem is still here. Carbs seem to be the only constant factor, rule them out. Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Cheers guys but i swapped the carbs i had for these one..d'oh...i hear what you are saying though.I still think its electrical mind you but i will not rule anything out right now.The thing is i have done all i can with the carbs themslves.They came to me clean as a whistle and i synchronised them in accordance with Mikuni's recommendations.It seems odd that the outer two carbs would cause an issue.the ignition system works in those pairs (1/4 2/3) and its like they are teasing me knowing this lol. I have tried checking with the multimeter today but kept getting continuity between all the coil wires...i then realised it because of the way the coils are made.I disconnected the wires from the coils and i got correct continuity between the coil end and the plug that goes into the ignitor.I guess i havn't screwed the loom up at least. I have tried an extra earth line too from the coils mountings...Im still confused as to why i can feel one coil 'energising' when i flick the kill switch to off...it happens to be the coil for 2/3.I can swap the coils over and that side of the loom will still 'energise'...just not both at the same time....Chicken and headless springs to mind Quote Link to comment
Blubber Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 bad kill switch connection ? - don't know this wiring diagram , so don't know if its possible... just thinking out loud Quote Link to comment
Gixer1460 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 10 minutes ago, Blubber said: bad kill switch connection ? - don't know this wiring diagram , so don't know if its possible... just thinking out loud Unlikely as switch is single feed to both coils and CDI together ie kills everything together! Possible engine rotation could be stopping so rotor is close enough to pick-up so it will spark whenever turned on - unlikely but possible. I think there is more likely to be something hinky in the ign. module - substitution is usually the only way for diagnosis. Quote Link to comment
strima Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Is the loom original or purpose made? The kill switch should kill both coils so the gremlins are in the wiring somewhere. Time to get the multimeter out and check the whole ignition circuit from source, don't just check for continuity, also check for very low resistance on the ohms setting, you should see nothing higher than roughly 0.25 ohms, anything higher means a dodgy connection or wire that will effect the system. Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Just checked the diagram and you are correct.The coil wiring is pretty straight forward. The rotor can be in any position it seems for the coil to energise.I am only using this term as i am assuming that's what its doing. The loom is o/e but i have no dash/speedo unit,no indicators,sidestand,gear position etc....just what's needed to run the engine,brake and single projector light and an oil pressure light.I have kept all the main loom as standard.This is a replacement loom as the original had a koso fitted but not as neat as i would have liked.It was a jungle of wires so i started with another and kept the dash multi block fitting to keep the wires tidy and in case i wanted to fit the original speedo etc I will check the ohm reading again tomorrow.(I think the carb and iffy running is a coincidence/red herring...if its not then i will apologise to all those who suggested carbs lol) ...........high ohms means resistance...resistance is bad...is this correct????? Edited January 30, 2016 by Sheep Addition Quote Link to comment
strima Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Resistance is very bad. I'm not that familiar with EFE wiring but at a guess the coils are permanently charged and the rotor triggers when to discharge. So there must be a permanent supply from the ignition circuit split between both coils, as 2&3 are working well I would suspect that the problem lies between the coil and the CDI/rotor. Check the resistance between the coil negative and the connection point nearest the CDI. I would start by cleaning all the connector blocks, a good squirt with electrical contact cleaner normally works. Also check for signs of the copper oxidising on any connectors, this will be a lovely green colour, if it's green then the cable will need chopping back to good copper. TBH I would never trust an old loom, I tend to make my own as it keeps things tidy and it's easier to fault find as I know what cable does what, but I like to do them all in black to make it more of a challenge... 2 Quote Link to comment
Captain Chaos Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 10 hours ago, strima said: I like to do them all in black to make it more of a challenge... next time try to integrate canbus to make it even more interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment
Sheep Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I think Suzuki were trying too hard with the EFE....it has lights/gadgets for everything lol..im surprised it didn't come with auto wash wipe and self parking!!!! Deep breath,hide the hammers and bring out the multi meter Btw.thanks for all the help so far guys,its much appreciated. Edited January 31, 2016 by Sheep Quote Link to comment
strima Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 6 hours ago, captain chaos said: next time try to integrate canbus to make it even more interesting. Most car manufacturers can't even get a CANBUS to work properly, I have no chance!!! Although it would be handy to have Bluetooth connectivity to the audio system for music streaming and phone calls... Quote Link to comment
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