Fellow Watercoolers! I'm on the hunt for a completely unobtainium part!!

[Gixer1460]

I have the Evans stuff in my Zetec powered Escort and its true it won't boil till 180 deg C but as boiling water @ 100 deg C is waaaay beyond the point that's good for an engine, either way its not smart! Plus if you do get a leak out on a ride, you can't add water as then you are back to square one - easy for me to carry a litre of fluid to top up if necessary!

[dupersunc]

That waterless coolant is nearly as bad as brake fluid to handle, horrid stuff, and doesn't cool any better than water. Only advantage is it doesn't pressurise, so great for masking iffy cooling systems.

Do not like.

[TonyGee]

 it must be good stuff as "delboy" uses it   

[manden]

Hello and welcome.

 

An important upgrade to the 1100w engines is good port of the cylinder head and larger inlet valves. It really frees up the engine.

 

The bst40 goes a long way with a good exhaust to match

[djayedot]

Hey guys, sorry for the hiatus. Work has been absolutely nuts. Things got to the point where I had to temporarily shut down my service department for a month so that we could get caught up with parts dept work... Man I wish people actually wanted to work nowadays, I've been hiring for MONTHS with no luck whatsoever!

 

Anyways, I've made a small amount of progress on the bike. I got the motor pulled and cases split. Ready to send out transmission for undercutting. BUT... My dumbass senses are kicking in again. I know I said I was thoroughly talked out of the 6spd idea, BUT- it was soooo easy to pull this motor and open it up. If I do end up destroying a 6spd box... How bad would it really be? Ya know?

 

Let's just say I *hypothetically* decided to try and throw a 600W/750W gearset in here. I understand that there are some differences aside from the obvious shift drum, forks, shift shaft, etc. Output section seems to be the same but let's talk about input. I now realize that these 6spd units actually came in two flavors- hollow and solid input shaft (early/late, respectively). Of course I need the hollow because I plan to retain the beefier 1100W hydraulic clutch, no biggie, I already have my sights set on a hollow input shaft on Eblag if I were to accidentally purchase a solid shaft trans. I believe I will need to use my RH side input shaft bearing with the hole in it. I trust in Suzuki being cool AF and keeping most dimensions the same between models, if bearing surface diameter of shaft is different I may be properly F***ed, or need to drill the diamond-hard bearing case, idk.

But here's where things get trickier. Online information on this swap is VAGUE at best, and from what I've heard, the inner clutch hub would require "minor machining". Okay, great, I have a lathe, so that shouldn't be a huge deal, but exactly what has to happen here??? I am not an expert machinist by any stretch. I have compared pics of 750W and 1100W shafts and the only visible difference I can see is that the depth of input shaft splines seems to be shorter on the 750W. Also, the location of the clutch basket inner race land/journal seems to be a little different but so long as the inner collar is supported on two points, I don't see that being a huge issue. 

But is the overall input shaft length the same? Diameter/splines SEEM to be the same, I hope....

I just want to have a rough idea of what I'm getting in to before I pull the trigger and do some wild shit. I have no problem chopping down some splines towards the back of the inner hub so that it seat fully if necessary, I have plenty of spares to practice on. Any other required modifications anyone is aware of?

 

Of course, I will be getting this 750W gearset undercut before installation. Anything else I can do to increase strength and reliability? Is cryo-treating worthwhile? Does anyone make billet shift forks for these transes? Or are the stock forks good enough? I also plan to get a Factory Pro shift star for the new trans to hopefully provide more positive shift selection.

 

-Austin

Edited April 11, 2022 by djayedot

[djayedot]

On 3/4/2022 at 6:25 AM, manden said:

Hello and welcome.

 

An important upgrade to the 1100w engines is good port of the cylinder head and larger inlet valves. It really frees up the engine.

 

The bst40 goes a long way with a good exhaust to match

Duly noted. My whole plan for the head was very "up in the air" until the time came closer. Porting was certainly on the list but now that I've heard (from a few different sources) that the larger intake valves are a good move I will DEFINITELY be doing it! Cam selection is still totally unknown as of right now, by the way.

Also, I am leaning most towards the BST40's at the moment. I like the stockish appearance, and am a fan of how well these carbs can "cruise". So long as they won't hold back a moderately built 1298cc WC motor in topend power (assuming spot-on jetting).

 

Thanks for the reply!

[Joseph]

This is for a RF900 but i think the bottom end is almost if not the same as the 1100 ?

https://youtu.be/TjEjdQNQ2FY

Does indeed look very straightforward to swap in

[djayedot]

8 hours ago, Joseph said:

This is for a RF900 but i think the bottom end is almost if not the same as the 1100 ?

https://youtu.be/TjEjdQNQ2FY

Does indeed look very straightforward to swap in

WOW I wish I came across this guy's videos a long time ago- some very useful information here thank you Joseph!!

 

I know very little about the RF's, and rarely come across them in my area... So I started doing some research.

It appears as if there is an "early" 1994 RF900 and a "late" 1995-1997ish RF900. Early uses regular 1100W clutch, late uses a pretty unique RF900-only clutch which looks alot like a 750W clutch basket (coil springs, traditional style plates) BUT this clutch still uses the LH-side hydraulic slave cylinder like any other 1100W. It is important to note that crankshafts are the same p/n between all year RF900 and 1100W. So, that leads me to believe that the primary drive gear on this special RF clutch is the correct tooth count and SHOULD mesh properly with my crank. It also SHOULD clear 1100W crank throws unlike the 600W/750W basket. Additionally, I confirmed that the alternator drive gear was the same and it is, which did not come as much of a surprise.

At this point I'm beginning to think that an RF900 clutch basket/inner hub/pressure plate/etc could be a viable solution (although they are scarce). However... Input shaft p/n's are different between early and late RF, so that's a bit concerning... I also have a considerable amount of money into this 1100W clutch recently. (Man oh man, these clutches are a little pricier than your average dirtbike or quad! I got so used to buying $100 clutch kits back in the day...)

 

So, with that said- I currently have a 750W gearset on order (which ODDLY has the bearing with the clutch pushrod hole in it, AND next to that, the case seal for said clutch pushrod, wtf, can anyone explain this??? The hell am I buying right now LOL). I'll be sending that out for undercutting as soon as I get it, which hopefully won't take too long. I have also pulled out from my inventory a 750W gear selection set (drum, ratchet, shift shaft, rails, forks, detent) that I still need to carefully inspect the forks for squareness and wear before I decide if I want to run it. Also still need to purchase the Factory Pro shift star for the 6spd. Lastly, I've also pulled a spare 1100W inner clutch hub out of my inventory, just in case the need arises for me to molest it on my lathe, I'd rather not experiment on my good one.

 

So yeah, I guess I'm doing it. And there's definitely still a few unknowns here (like the SUPER special looking spring steel thingy that's pressed in to the 1100W input shaft to help keep clutch pushrod centered. I will somehow have to replicate that). So I guess we'll see what happens, I'll try to provide as many pics along the way... Stay tuned!

 

-Austin

Edited April 12, 2022 by djayedot

[Joseph]

Yeah i have an RF900 block i was hoping to do this to, so looking into it last year ago i did a google search and only found a few vague posts in various message boards, but this guys video was uploaded just a couple of months ago showing it A to Z 

[wombat258]

Use a 1052 clutch hub, pressure plate and springs with the 750W input shaft and the 1100W basket, plates etc. You will have to remove the plug from the end of the hollow 750 shaft, and replace it with a support spider from a 1100W donor shaft. Easy hydraulic conversion. Will it last? Maybe if you do not flog it. Necessary? The 1100 engine has lots of torque, so no real necessity for a close range gearbox. And, no need for the Factory Pro star, just transfer ALL the 750 gearbox bits including drum, forks, selector shaft etc.

[Joseph]

Whats with the already hollow 750 shaft ? Any specific year these were fitted ? 

Edit :

looks like 24121-17E01 is solid and 24120-17E20 is hollow

Edited April 13, 2022 by Joseph

[djayedot]

11 hours ago, wombat258 said:

Use a 1052 clutch hub, pressure plate and springs with the 750W input shaft and the 1100W basket, plates etc. You will have to remove the plug from the end of the hollow 750 shaft, and replace it with a support spider from a 1100W donor shaft. Easy hydraulic conversion. Will it last? Maybe if you do not flog it. Necessary? The 1100 engine has lots of torque, so no real necessity for a close range gearbox. And, no need for the Factory Pro star, just transfer ALL the 750 gearbox bits including drum, forks, selector shaft etc.

Thank you for this. In the back of my mind, I've always figured there were some parts that carried over from the O/C bikes (due to obvious external similarities to our WC bikes) however at least in my experience, it is rare to find a p/n that crosses over, or is at least useful, from said bikes. I am grateful that Suzuki is a chill ass manufacturer who doesn't change things (i.e. shaft diameters, spline counts, etc) that don't need changing over the years. I will definitely keep this inner hub and pressure plate on the backburner as an emergency "plan B" option. But for now, I'm going to try to bore some splines out of the back of my inner clutch hub (not too much) so that it will fully seat on the input shaft, as I love any excuse to run my new lathe which I rarely get to use, lmao.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the year split between 1052 and 1127 oil cooled engines? I don't know as much about these guys as I should...

-Austin

Edited April 13, 2022 by djayedot

[djayedot]

2 hours ago, Joseph said:

Whats with the already hollow 750 shaft ? Any specific year these were fitted ? 

Edit :

looks like 24121-17E01 is solid and 24120-17E20 is hollow

Based on my limited reading, early 750W were fitted with solid and at some point they switched over to hollow, presumably to cut down on weight/rotational mass. However, what's really boggling my mind at the moment is WHY does this *6spd* "750W" box that I have just purchased not only have that hollow shaft, but also the input shaft bearing and LH side case seal with the clutch release pushrod hole in it??? WTF bike could that even be from???

 

-Austin

[djayedot]

Also as a sidenote- I've done some more daydreaming/dicking around whilst waiting for these parts to arrive, and I've further developed my gameplan...

I've taken some critical measurements (most importantly- the dimension from rear friction surface of original inner hub to case. Actually, I used the backside of the LH output shaft bearing as my reference point) which I plan to maintain no matter what combination of parts I run... I have a ROUGH measurement of the 750W overall shaft length from the seller- it seems to be about 6mm shorter than the 1100W part (but let's assume anywhere from 4-8mm). I figure so long as I can get the inner hub fully seated on the splines in it's proper location, I could use a thin bendy splined lockwasher from another model Suzuki instead of the thick convex washer + deformed edge locknut that the 1100W originally came with in order to save some thread height...

As far as the clutch pushrod is concerned, I looked at the long one and it looks super easy to disassemble, shorten, and reassemble. No biggie. I also have another 1100W here at my shop that I can use to roughly gauge proper pushrod protrusion (externally) for the sake of the slave cylinder being happy. But that centering insert inside of the shaft looks to me like one of those dreaded parts that can be installed easily, but NEVER come out. Or at least never come out intact... So, worst case scenario I'm banking on machining a sintered bronze sleeve to replace that with in the new shaft. Hopefully it ends up being a nice pressed fit and doesn't walk...

From you guy's perspective- any other important points that I'm overlooking here???

[Joseph]

1052 GSXR was 86-88 

1127 GSXR was 89-92

But the 1100F was 1127, from 87 to 94

Go figure 

 

Back on the 6 speed box topic, is the bore of this WC shaft, the same as the 1100 5 speed ?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Joseph

[beardo]

Not to go off topic, but was this the same Superbike Mike that was down in Oakland Park, FLA?

[wombat258]

10 hours ago, Joseph said:

Back on the 6 speed box topic, is the bore of this WC shaft, the same as the 1100 5 speed ?

Yes. I have done this conversion. The star of the 1100W will come out with a suitable drift. I preferred to use the star to maintain the oil flow, and discounted using a bronze bush. 750W shaft is 10mm shorter than the 1100W shaft.

You can only use the 1100W hub by counterboring enough to expose the shaft threads, and making a special stepped nut. Do not machine the splines at the back of the hub, as it will foul the basket springs! I have one of those hubs for a sidecar race engine floating around here somewhere. The 1052 hub is neater, and the springs are easier to tune for higher torque outputs.

Sold one of these modified 750W gearboxes a few years ago. The buyer insisted it would fit in an SRAD, I said NO . . . I noticed it came back onto FB marketplace shortly afterwards

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by wombat258
More info

[djayedot]

23 hours ago, Joseph said:

1052 GSXR was 86-88 

1127 GSXR was 89-92

But the 1100F was 1127, from 87 to 94

Go figure 

 

Back on the 6 speed box topic, is the bore of this WC shaft, the same as the 1100 5 speed ?

Perfect, thanks man. Hopefully I can find what I need, looks like I only have 1 model over the course of 3 years to work with haha.

15 hours ago, beardo said:

Not to go off topic, but was this the same Superbike Mike that was down in Oakland Park, FLA?

Yes that's correct. Believe he's been closed for quite a while now.

[djayedot]

12 hours ago, wombat258 said:

Yes. I have done this conversion. The star of the 1100W will come out with a suitable drift. I preferred to use the star to maintain the oil flow, and discounted using a bronze bush. 750W shaft is 10mm shorter than the 1100W shaft.

You can only use the 1100W hub by counterboring enough to expose the shaft threads, and making a special stepped nut. Do not machine the splines at the back of the hub, as it will foul the basket springs! I have one of those hubs for a sidecar race engine floating around here somewhere. The 1052 hub is neater, and the springs are easier to tune for higher torque outputs.

Sold one of these modified 750W gearboxes a few years ago. The buyer insisted it would fit in an SRAD, I said NO . . . I noticed it came back onto FB marketplace shortly afterwards 

Alright, you've got me sold on this 1052 idea... I was never a fan of diaphragm sprung clutches anyways (brings me awful harley flashbacks... yuck). So just to make sure I'm getting this right: 86-88 GSXR1100 inner clutch hub, outer pressure plate, springs, and hardware for end of shaft and springs? And it will all line up correctly with my 1100W clutch basket and plate set without machine work? Even with the shorter 6spd shaft?

 

-Austin

[wombat258]

Yes. It is also a common modification to use 6 spring plate on an 1100W, except you need to make a 10mm spacer for under the hub nut to allow for the longer 1100W shaft. You may need a longer pushrod, or add an 11mm bearing as a spacer.

[djayedot]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:40 AM, wombat258 said:

Yes. It is also a common modification to use 6 spring plate on an 1100W, except you need to make a 10mm spacer for under the hub nut to allow for the longer 1100W shaft. You may need a longer pushrod, or add an 11mm bearing as a spacer.

Damn they have a 6 spring joint available?! What motors did they come in? Not going to lie, in the back of my head I was thinking 4 springs was a little light for an 1100cc bike (I mean, even dirtbikes and ATV's are usually 5-8 springs, albeit with softer spring rates...)

I actually just ordered the outer plate (4 spring) and EBC HD spring kit, I thought I had an inner hub on the hook but it looks like the seller can't locate it now so I may be beat there. I may have screwed up though... Seems to me like these parts are from an 1127 motor (1988 Kat). But they appear identical to the 1052 coil spring parts (which are harder to find). Suzuki microfiche is a bit muddy but I believe theyre the same? From what I understand the later 1127 just went to a diaphragm sprung system correct? (i.e. So long as the hub is a 4 coil unit I'm good, right?)

 

-Austin

[wombat258]

My bad. I actually made a 6 spring conversion for my 1100W engines a while ago before I went to a lockup.

The 1052 is a 4 spring, I bought new parts from Suzuki, as follows:

1 Clutch inner hub 21410-06B02 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
2 Pressure disc 21462-06B00 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
3 Coil springs 4 off - Barnett HD
4 Spring spacers 09180-06174 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
5 Washers 09160-06020 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
6 Bolts 01107-06307 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J

Edited April 15, 2022 by wombat258
more detail

[djayedot]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:53 PM, wombat258 said:

My bad. I actually made a 6 spring conversion for my 1100W engines a while ago before I went to a lockup.

The 1052 is a 4 spring, I bought new parts from Suzuki, as follows:

1 Clutch inner hub 21410-06B02 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
2 Pressure disc 21462-06B00 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
3 Coil springs 4 off - Barnett HD
4 Spring spacers 09180-06174 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
5 Washers 09160-06020 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
6 Bolts 01107-06307 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J

Thanks man. Based on some reading, I think the 4 spring unit (with stiff springs and good quality kevlar plates) will be enough for my needs, at least until that SBM bigbore kit shows up...

 

At the moment though, we may have a bigger problem. I *may* be an imbecile... Or, maybe the seller I purchased this trans from is an imbecile, we shall find out in a second:

Long story short, idk WTF I purchased here... It was advertised as a 93-95 750W trans in the title, but after getting sketched out and performing a closer inspection of the description they actually claim it was pulled from a 1996 750 (UH OH, please be a typo). This *would* explain the mysterious hollow input shaft and pushrod hole.

But here's the kicker.... It drops right in to my cases and everything meshes and lines up as it should??? Even the half-moon clips and bearing locating pins/oil passages! Input and output shaft splines, diameters all appear to be the same as well... From my understanding, people have tried SRAD transes in the past and they aren't even close to fitting, right? (I did look up some pics of SRAD transes and the half moon clip slots seem to be located centrally in the outer bearing race, which mine are most definitely not).

Here's what I'm concerned about (maybe this is normal and I'm just bugging over here, haven't had a close look at a 600W/750W trans in a while): The windows/dogs are REALLY shallow compared to what I was expecting. Yes, I know the gears must be shallower for six of them to fit in these cases but like damn, really? (See pics.) A DR350S has deeper engagement points than this...

Second thing- included with the trans was the telltale countershaft sprocket washer/reluctor wheel for the output shaft speed sensor (see pic). Smells like SRAD to me...

Anybody want to offer some input on WTF I bought here??? I'm a bit confused and concerned, to say the least.

-Austin 

 

 

[Joseph]

I have a W gearbox with hollow shaft arriving this week, i'll be able to supply comparison material

[djayedot]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:09 PM, Joseph said:

I have a W gearbox with hollow shaft arriving this week, i'll be able to supply comparison material

Awesome bro thank you!! I fitted my original clutch hub to the new input shaft just for shats and the -10mm shaft length sounds right about spot on. I *nearly* could get away with a thinner nut, but it really leaves no room for a washer, and given the sketchy nature of the interrupted-cut threads over the splines, not worth attempting.

 

-Austin