Bike's away for winter, anyone know a good place to get my head ported?

[rerb]

Hey all, after a good first season without blowing the bike up, the temperature has dropped and the snow has come. 

I've put the bandit away, but plan on doing some upgrades this winter. Does anyone know a good spot where I can get my b12 head ported for a turbo application? I'm having a hard time finding a local shop, and wouldn't mind shipping it and not having it for a few weeks. Before I choose one somewhat nearby, I'm curious if anyone knows a place that specializes in these bikes. Thanks for any recommendations. 

[no class]

seeing that you are in USA ….. several choices available but expensive….. Holeshot performance , Star racing , APE , Klymenko flo ….. sooo many others…takes your pick

[rerb]

8 hours ago, no class said:

seeing that you are in USA ….. several choices available but expensive….. Holeshot performance , Star racing , APE , Klymenko flo ….. sooo many others…takes your pick

Thanks for the recommendation.

I've got a probably stupid question, but I've asked a few people and haven't gotten a straight answer yet.

Since porting the heads should make the motor more efficient at making power with boost, if there were 2 identical motors both making 250 hp, but one was ported on 12 psi, and the other not ported on 15 psi, would the ported one be less likely to blow since it's running lower boost pressure? Or does it only depend on the power output of the motor? 

Seems like it'll have a pretty straight forward answer, but I haven't found it yet. Thanks 

[Arttu]

Less boost means easier life for many parts. Intake air temp will be lower which means smaller risk for detonation. Also exhaust temp and pressure are lower which also helps with detonation and exhaust valves will live longer too. For the bottom end it probably doesn't make much difference since the cylinder pressures should be roughly the same. Maybe a little bit better for smaller boost because there is less work to do on exhaust stroke.

[Gixer1460]

3 hours ago, Arttu said:

 Maybe a little bit better for smaller boost because there is less work to do on exhaust stroke.

True if NA, but you'll still have the biggest restriction which is the turbine. A ported head on the intake helps cylinder filling efficiency hence lower boost for equivalent HP but a ported exhaust only really benefits from a good polish! This minimises heat transfer, keeping gases hotter helps drive the turbo better!

[Arttu]

44 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

True if NA, but you'll still have the biggest restriction which is the turbine. A ported head on the intake helps cylinder filling efficiency hence lower boost for equivalent HP but a ported exhaust only really benefits from a good polish! This minimises heat transfer, keeping gases hotter helps drive the turbo better!

At lower boost the turbine needs to do less work so more exhaust gases are going through the wastegate. This results lower exhaust pressure.

[no class]

5 hours ago, rerb said:

Thanks for the recommendation.

I've got a probably stupid question, but I've asked a few people and haven't gotten a straight answer yet.

Since porting the heads should make the motor more efficient at making power with boost, if there were 2 identical motors both making 250 hp, but one was ported on 12 psi, and the other not ported on 15 psi, would the ported one be less likely to blow since it's running lower boost pressure? Or does it only depend on the power output of the motor? 

Seems like it'll have a pretty straight forward answer, but I haven't found it yet. Thanks 

#1- Yes           #2- depends on state of tune….. fueling , ignition 

[Fredrik_Steen]

You can calculate your intake temp in matchbot:

https://www.borgwarner.com/aftermarket/boosting-technologies/performance-turbochargers/matchbot

 

What turbo and intercooler are you running?

[rerb]

5 hours ago, Fredrik_Steen said:

You can calculate your intake temp in matchbot:

https://www.borgwarner.com/aftermarket/boosting-technologies/performance-turbochargers/matchbot

 

What turbo and intercooler are you running?

 

Thanks for the replies, sounds like enough of a reason to go through with it!

And it's Td05 16g, no intercooler atm. Not sure what options I'd have for one that isn't super $$ or space consuming

Edited November 19, 2021 by rerb

[Fredrik_Steen]

If you calculate it in matchbot intercooler are more worth it than port the head. 

Do you have stock bandit camshafts?

[rerb]

18 hours ago, Fredrik_Steen said:

If you calculate it in matchbot intercooler are more worth it than port the head. 

Do you have stock bandit camshafts?

according to the calculator my intake temps are above 220 degrees... def seems like an intercooler is a good idea. And stock cams as of now, but my peak torque is pretty high up so I'm contemplating GSXR cams as mine have some pitting and wear on the lobes. 

The most space effective option for an intercooler seems to be water to air, but it seems like a lot to setup a water pump, lines, and a heat transfer. I might be able to get away with a front mount, but I have a large aftermarket oil cooler which takes up a lot of space...

[Fredrik_Steen]

With a intercooler your boost pressure will drop and you gain hp (denser air)

It's a hassle to make room for intercoolers, but it will be worth it 

The sloppy bandit cams ain't funny at all, if you can find something else it would be more worth it than porting the head. 

[Gixer1460]

10 hours ago, rerb said:

The most space effective option for an intercooler seems to be water to air, but it seems like a lot to setup a water pump, lines, and a heat transfer. I might be able to get away with a front mount, but I have a large aftermarket oil cooler which takes up a lot of space...

I'd generally agree air to water IC's make sense IF the engine is already water cooled! Trying to install a standalone water cooled solution on a bike is crazy - the original engine makes more heat so needs bigger cooling capacity, the boost requirement with excess heat requires an IC, a water cooled IC needs a) all the air side plumbing b) the water side plumbing c) the pump, power supply & possibly the controller and d) a water radiator to dump the IC removed heat!

Yes the picture of 'Project Laaarge' has a water IC but Sean has always been a bit strange and doesn't think 'normally' + its designed to run under extreme boost for 5-10 seconds max - nice practical 'grocery getter' LOL! I did talk with him that if he moved the oil cooler (under seat maybe) he could get a massive air 2 air in its place and his answer was ' it looks the mutts nutz though'

[rerb]

12 hours ago, Fredrik_Steen said:

With a intercooler your boost pressure will drop and you gain hp (denser air)

It's a hassle to make room for intercoolers, but it will be worth it 

The sloppy bandit cams ain't funny at all, if you can find something else it would be more worth it than porting the head. 

that thing is crazy...

Well i'll take everyone's advice and run over to the shop to tear down the bike and sort out a spot for an I/C. thanks for the replies

[Fredrik_Steen]

8 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

I'd generally agree air to water IC's make sense IF the engine is already water cooled! Trying to install a standalone water cooled solution on a bike is crazy - the original engine makes more heat so needs bigger cooling capacity, the boost requirement with excess heat requires an IC, a water cooled IC needs a) all the air side plumbing b) the water side plumbing c) the pump, power supply & possibly the controller and d) a water radiator to dump the IC removed heat!

Yes the picture of 'Project Laaarge' has a water IC but Sean has always been a bit strange and doesn't think 'normally' + its designed to run under extreme boost for 5-10 seconds max - nice practical 'grocery getter' LOL! I did talk with him that if he moved the oil cooler (under seat maybe) he could get a massive air 2 air in its place and his answer was ' it looks the mutts nutz though'

You won't use the coolant in a engine with water either, it's to hot.

The intercooler water needs to be ambient temperature.

 

You only need a small water radiator, when you ain't under boost the ambient inlet air in the boost pipe will cool the intercooler core.

 

The big problem with bandits are the space behind the engine, it's very hard to have the intercooler core in the plenum like all Hayabusa have. 

 

Video on the topic 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Fredrik_Steen

[Gixer1460]

12 hours ago, Fredrik_Steen said:

You won't use the coolant in a engine with water either, it's to hot.

The intercooler water needs to be ambient temperature.

Its not too hot! - most watercooling systems are pressurised and run 70 - 80 degrees C so the delta from intake air temp in the above post to coolant temp is approx 130 deg C - that is a significant cooling potential. Agreed there will be a degree of heating off boost, but once into boost, air will be heated (basic physics) and parity will soon occur! And if going for ultimate performance and short run times, like drag racing, then a ice water IC makes sense but even then at, say, 40psi and 8 - 10 second run, that ice water is near enough boiling!

Just about everything has been tried in connection with cooling charge air - I like the idea of a methanol / alcohol / water spray over a air - air IC or even a CO2 / NO2 spray as the coolant is so cold at point of contact or has a huge potential for sucking heat away due to evaporation, as to achieve sub ambient intake temps. Combine these with using alcohol as combustion fuel and boost potential sky rockets! I believe Indy cars race using Methanol and boost level is capped at 50psi and they run virtually flat out for 4-500 miles - no mean feat!

[Arttu]

2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Its not too hot! - most watercooling systems are pressurised and run 70 - 80 degrees C so the delta from intake air temp in the above post to coolant temp is approx 130 deg C - that is a significant cooling potential. Agreed there will be a degree of heating off boost, but once into boost, air will be heated (basic physics) and parity will soon occur! And if going for ultimate performance and short run times, like drag racing, then a ice water IC makes sense but even then at, say, 40psi and 8 - 10 second run, that ice water is near enough boiling!

I don't think I have ever seen engine coolant used for intercooling. With typical water-air cooler setup outcoming air can be 20-50°C above coolant temp. So if you start from 80°C coolant the result won't be too good. Yes, maybe better than nothing if you are running high enough boost but still hardly worth of effort.

[manden]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:26 PM, rerb said:

Hey all, after a good first season without blowing the bike up, the temperature has dropped and the snow has come. 

I've put the bandit away, but plan on doing some upgrades this winter. Does anyone know a good spot where I can get my b12 head ported for a turbo application? I'm having a hard time finding a local shop, and wouldn't mind shipping it and not having it for a few weeks. Before I choose one somewhat nearby, I'm curious if anyone knows a place that specializes in these bikes. Thanks for any recommendations. 

carpenter makes good work. wasnt too expensive about 10 years ago. dont know their current prices

[rerb]

Now this may sound crazy, but... how about water or watermeth injection? It cools the air almost instantly, raises octane, and keeps the motor cool... its also badass to say "I have a turbocharged watermeth injected motorcycle".

The only challenge I can see is just tuning it, fitting the tanks to the bike and getting the methanol.

Anyone here played around with it?

[no class]

……windshield washer fluid 50/50

[Arttu]

I have some experience, mostly with straight water or about 20% water/ethanol mix.

To summarize it shortly it seems to be good for increasing safety margin but not that great power adder. I can see nice drop in intake air and exhaust temps but getting any power increase requires just correct amount of water. At best I have seen about 5% power increase with gasoline but with E85 it has been pretty much 0 by this far. Although I haven't spent too much time trying to find optimal combination of water flow and ignition timing.

Using methanol at 50/50 or even higher ratio would probably give better results for power. But then you may need to tune fueling to compensate added methanol which increases risks if you run out of water/methanol.

[Fredrik_Steen]

Holdener did a test earlier this week, boost juice vs windshield washer. He also has a 1h video up on the topic that you might be interested in 

 

If you don't want to fit a intercooler, look into converting your fuel system to E-85.

[Gixer1460]

5 hours ago, Arttu said:

I have some experience, mostly with straight water or about 20% water/ethanol mix.

To summarize it shortly it seems to be good for increasing safety margin but not that great power adder. I can see nice drop in intake air and exhaust temps but getting any power increase requires just correct amount of water. At best I have seen about 5% power increase with gasoline but with E85 it has been pretty much 0 by this far. Although I haven't spent too much time trying to find optimal combination of water flow and ignition timing.

Using methanol at 50/50 or even higher ratio would probably give better results for power. But then you may need to tune fueling to compensate added methanol which increases risks if you run out of water/methanol.

No empirical evidence here but I suspect the 'instant' cooling effect is real but the minimal power increase is down to the water taking up volume in the cylinder whilst providing no combustibles. The air density may increase slightly due to the cooling and so aid with detonation but I suspect any added fuel serves hardly any 'useful' purpose other than a bit more cooling / lowering the AFR even further. Carrying useful quantities of water mix will pose problems and risk of running out whilst at high boost could prove terminal - maybe good at the track where levels can be monitored but for a road bike even with the inherent impracticalities an air 2 air IC alone or with the use of E85 must be a better solution long term. I know I could run my system with pump piss up to around 1 bar boost very safely but using 2+ bar boost, I must use decent fuel - C16 race fuel or similar - easy choice, as nothing is free, there are always trade off's!

[rerb]

7 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

No empirical evidence here but I suspect the 'instant' cooling effect is real but the minimal power increase is down to the water taking up volume in the cylinder whilst providing no combustibles. The air density may increase slightly due to the cooling and so aid with detonation but I suspect any added fuel serves hardly any 'useful' purpose other than a bit more cooling / lowering the AFR even further. Carrying useful quantities of water mix will pose problems and risk of running out whilst at high boost could prove terminal - maybe good at the track where levels can be monitored but for a road bike even with the inherent impracticalities an air 2 air IC alone or with the use of E85 must be a better solution long term. I know I could run my system with pump piss up to around 1 bar boost very safely but using 2+ bar boost, I must use decent fuel - C16 race fuel or similar - easy choice, as nothing is free, there are always trade off's!

Great pointss guys, as it was said It would mostly be used for intake temp, less of a power adder. As for monitoring it, that's not too concerning as while it is a street bike, it's not a full daily. I'd also use the university's shop to fabricate some nice large storage tanks. Mostly want to increase my safety margin at high boost on pump gas. E85 is a dream, but carb seals and the fact that the nearest e85 gas station is over 4 hours away, it's unobtainable

if I decide to go for it I would probably start with just water with a temp sensor fitted to see if it does anything. I can see tuning for meth being a pain, but I built this bike to experiment. If I give it a shot I'll keep you all posted

 

[Arttu]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:27 AM, Fredrik_Steen said:

Holdener did a test earlier this week, boost juice vs windshield washer. He also has a 1h video up on the topic that you might be interested in 

Pretty good video and matches quite well to my experiences too. Although difference between the fluids was surprisingly big, I would guess there was some factor in play that wasn't properly tuned around. Also I was expecting that kind engine setup showing some power gain with properly set up water injection.

But again confirms the point that water injection is more about increasing safety than getting more power. Naturally it can allow you to rise the boost and get more power that way.