GSXF 1100 clutch discs - Solved

[Joseph]

Hello

My bike is doing my head in at the clutch department

I've come to the point in my investigations that i decided to buy a new set of the proper spec discs

The 11F for some stupid reason like all it's oil cooled cousins has it's very own cocktail of parts, rather than Suzuki doing a generic setup that could work well for all.

So it has 11 ferodo discs, the 2 outer ones being a different ref to the 9 ones in the pile

Does anyone know what the difference is ?

I know you should only buy Suzuki clutch bits, but the 2 outer ones are NLA 

OF COURSE THEY ARE 

Can I get away with using 2 inner ones ?

Thanks

Edited February 5, 2021 by Joseph

[Joseph]

Any advice at all on this ?

I have no idea how to solve the no clutch issues I've got on my bike 

Thanks

[clivegto]

You need to measure the clutch plates & build the correct height for the clutch stack, gsx1100f clutch plates are the same as the early Gsxr1100 slabside models. Try Robinson Foundry for parts with the 5% OSS discount. 

[wraith]

I got a complete set of steels and fibers from Robinson's about 5 years ago for my gax1100f engine/clutch all the fibers came the same part number and they told me that was right, and haven't had any problems with it. Will till I made a Ti push rod and got the size/length mix up 

The push rod is the same size as the gsxr 101mm I know this as I order a new one for the gax1100f from Robinson's to make sure I had the right size  

By the way the pressure plate is the same as the 1100 slaby 

[Joseph]

Hi

Thanks for your input

The slave side rod and the clutch side pusher rod of the F (92mm and 68mm) are not the same as the R (101mm and 48mm), as per the microfiche. The long internal rod however is the same for both

F has 11+10 discs, R has 10+9 discs

I am trying to put together all the parts relevant to the F system since that is the clutch basket i have on the engine, but it's not going right. I have stacked the discs in the basket and put the F basket pushrod, the pressure plate is way off.

I just can't work it out

[Joseph]

Woukd it be possible to take out the whole basket and put in a complete GSXR diapraghm clutch system in ? 

I'm asking because i have a functional one in a 11R engine so maybe it could be an idea ?

[Joseph]

A few photos to illustrate.

Does anything seem blatantly wrong ? I just can't think anymore 

Where the disc stack reaches :

Where the clutch rod sits :

How the pressure plate sits just slipped on

 

[Gixer1460]

3 hours ago, Joseph said:

 

Even uncompressed / bolted up that doesn't look right to me!

A diaphragm clutch may fit but primary gear may be incorrect either straight / helical gear or different tooth count?

[Duckndive]

does it fit closer without the clutch lifer in ? 

as it looks like its out to far which would point to wrong lifter or push-rod / s 

Edit "it looks like it needs another plate in the stack...is the fixed steel on the bottom of the inner hub ? 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Duckndive

[Joseph]

Hello

With a 11R clutch side rod, the pressure plates fits on and contacts the discs, but the rod is nowhere near touching the pressure plate, like 2cm out

How is it possible that with :

- 11F engine cases

- 11F clutch cylinder rod

- 11F main rod

- 11F basket and discs set up as per the microfiche

- 11F clutch push rod

- 11F springs and spacers

This motherfucking piece of shit is still laughing at me stood on axle stands in the garage ?

 

[wraith]

Something wrong with the center hub it's sticking out to far looking at the pics 

Yes you're right 92mm push rod for gsx1100f 

 

[Joseph]

Center hub looks far out in the photos, i've just measured 1mm protusion of the hub compared to the outer basket

[Duckndive]

53 minutes ago, Joseph said:

Hello

With a 11R clutch side rod, the pressure plates fits on and contacts the discs, but the rod is nowhere near touching the pressure plate, like 2cm out

 

so are you saying the clutch pressure plate is not being pushed when you operate the clutch ? 

[no class]

your pics of the basket in relation to the inner hub make me think that the large washer behind the basket may be missing ? 

[no class]

1 minute ago, no class said:

your pics of the basket in relation to the inner hub make me think that the large washer (#2 in the assembly diagram) behind the basket may be missing ?  the thickness of that washer looks like the gap from the pressure plate to friction disc ....

 

[Joseph]

Ah ! That is interesting. I will pop off the whole thing tomorrow.

Any trick i need to know or is it just a socket on the impact gun ?

[Joseph]

Just checked on cmsnl it actually gives 2.5 mm thickness for that washer.

Doesn't explain whats going wrong with the clutch side pushrod sticking out too much however

[Joseph]

1 hour ago, Duckndive said:

so are you saying the clutch pressure plate is not being pushed when you operate the clutch ? 

With 11R discs (2 less) and the R clutch side push rod, it was operating but not engaging enough, just slipping. That said with that setup it was a steel disc at the bottom of the basket.

That is what how the engine was set up when i got it

[wraith]

Just to get the basic, have you had the bike/engine running with a working clutch?

Or is it a engine you've not had running on the road?

[Joseph]

Hi

Engine i bought rebuilt. It has been modified (1216, cams, ports) and has been fitted with a 6 speed box from an 88 or 89 7R

I have had the bike on the road, but its no good.

Engine with bike on the stand revs well, holds a normal RPM idle

Since tinkering with it i have found out that it was supplied with

- 4 spring pressure plate clutch basket from F

- 11R discs (so not as many as F, and, there was a steel disc contacting at the bottom of the basket

- 11R clutch plate pushrod

That allowed the bike to ride, but no speed, no actual acceleration but engine revs up then it kinda kicks in, all the symptoms of a worn out clutch.

 

[wraith]

Not 100% on this, have a look at Frankinsten pages there something about bearing with the 6speed box that needs to be changed/ case altered.

[Joseph]

Ok, i went to have a look, this is what is said :

4. 750R 6 box in a 1127 motor
The only hard thing here is to have a hole drilled through the gear box shaft, for the pushrod.
The 750 6 boxes have a single row bearing on the output shaft, and the clutch does
not have a diaphragm spring. So the easiest 1127 engines to put a 6 box in are the ones with a
single row bearing on the output shaft, and no diaphragm clutch, ie. only the GSXF1127 engines.
In these engines the 6 box drops straight in, only the shaft has to be drilled.
Second easy would be an 1127R engine with a diaphragm clutch, but no double row bearing (88-90).
In this case the box would still drop in, but for the clutch one would have to use the inner
clutch parts from a GSXF1127 (with normal springs) and the outer clutch basket from the 1127R
(with a straight cut gear, not helical).
Most work is in a 91/92 1127R where one would have to match the clutch as above + find a
solution for the double row bearing (the solution is actually to turn the double row bearing
inside out, and make a little hole for the small pin).
Of course the shift drum and forks from the 6 box have to be used as well, but they drop in
any 1127 without problem.

[Joseph]

And as for the clutch mix and match :

GSXR1127 89-on and B12 have a diaphragm spring, the GSXF/G have normal springs.
The GSXR and B12 have a straight cut gear, the GSXF/G have a helical cut gear.
Because of the different gear on the clutch basket, the clutch basket is not swappable.
Since the types with a diaphragm spring have a longer shaft to accommodate the bolt for the
central spring, these parts are also not swappable. It is possible to use the internal clutch
parts from a ‘normal spring type’ in the basket (or actually on the gear box shaft) from a
‘diaphragm spring type’, but you need to fill the space on the longer shaft. It is not
possible to use the diaphragm style clutch on a GSXF gear box shaft, since the shaft is to short.

[Joseph]

My engine case is V706 so that is F, and the reason why he used them and i forgot what he said is explained in that article, basically a straight swap for the box (provided you drill the shaft) and 100% clutch compatibility 

I'll take it all out to check if any aforementioned washers are missing

[Duckndive]

Does the clutch basket have a helical gear or a straight cut one ?