Dry block big bore turbo oiling issue

[TiZiK]

Hey folks. Been awhile since I've been here. Also been awhile since I worked on my project. I have a slabby that I've installed a APE gorilla block on. I had to dry block it. I installed a set of top end Oilers from Dave at Fast by Me. 

I fed the top end Oilers from the main oil gallery and also the oil port in the valve cover.  The turbo (Holset HY35) is also fed from the main gallery. 

My issue is top end oiling. I think I squeaked another set of rockers and cams. 

Had anyone else dry blocked an 1100 (1052) and added a turbo? How did you solve the oiling issues?

I also installed heavy duty valve springs which also has me thinking the spring rate may me too high.

I'm thinking myself in circles right now and need some outside chatter to make sense of it all. 

 

TIA

Edited October 4, 2020 by TiZiK

[Gixer1460]

Using the APE block shouldn't be an issue - you did block the oil gallery / stud feeds in the cases I assume? Why are you feeding the valve cover from the main gallery - it should have 'low pressure' oil from the back of the cases. Its a whole different oil circuit separate in the pump. These engines don't 'generally' have oiling issues. Any HD springs from normal sources will work fine - 1000's of engines have HD valve springs with few issues - mainly caused by binding or poor assembly!

[MeanBean49]

13 hours ago, TiZiK said:

Hey folks. Been awhile since I've been here. Also been awhile since I worked on my project. I have a slabby that I've installed a APE gorilla block on. I had to dry block it. I installed a set of top end Oilers from Dave at Fast by Me. 

I fed the top end Oilers from the main oil gallery and also the oil port in the valve cover.  The turbo (Holset HY35) is also fed from the main gallery. 

My issue is top end oiling. I think I squeaked another set of rockers and cams. 

Had anyone else dry blocked an 1100 (1052) and added a turbo? How did you solve the oiling issues?

I also installed heavy duty valve springs which also has me thinking the spring rate may me too high.

I'm thinking myself in circles right now and need some outside chatter to make sense of it all. 

 

TIA

Feeding from the valve cover as well as the main gallery could be your problem.

Your actually lowering the oil pressure to the entire high pressure oil system, (crank included) by connecting into to the low pressure system. There is virtually no pressure at the point you have tapped into. You high pressure feed from the main gallery wil bleed off into it rather than the low pressure flow into cams.

Also woth checking the internal diameter of the main gallery feed pipe, if its smaller than the size of the jet that sits in the oil way between crank case and barrels it will be restricting flow, or if its bigger could alter things too. The ideal is to have a feed to either side with pipe the same cross sectional area as the standard oil ways and with a jet the same size as standard in the pipe in similar position to the one in the cases

[TiZiK]

The oil gallery that normally feeds the head is indeed blocked. I tapped it and blocked it with a 12mm length set screw with red loctite. 

The valve springs are from APE so i agree that it shouldn't be a problem. Was just a thought that was passing through my mind. 

When I initially installed the top end Oiler kit, I didn't use the valve cover ports. That was the first set of rockers cooked. I then connected them to see if that was the issue. Guess not. 

 

@meanbean Do you mean the line i used from the main gallery to the top end Oiler kit? It's a -3 I believe. 

I searched my previous posts and apparently I posted about this a while back as well. One chap mentioned that there are 2 holes in the valve cover circuit that can be blocked off which helps increase the oil pressure as well. 

Any thoughts on that?

[MeanBean49]

9 minutes ago, TiZiK said:

The oil gallery that normally feeds the head is indeed blocked. I tapped it and blocked it with a 12mm length set screw with red loctite. 

The valve springs are from APE so i agree that it shouldn't be a problem. Was just a thought that was passing through my mind. 

When I initially installed the top end Oiler kit, I didn't use the valve cover ports. That was the first set of rockers cooked. I then connected them to see if that was the issue. Guess not. 

 

@meanbean Do you mean the line i used from the main gallery to the top end Oiler kit? It's a -3 I believe. 

I searched my previous posts and apparently I posted about this a while back as well. One chap mentioned that there are 2 holes in the valve cover circuit that can be blocked off which helps increase the oil pressure as well. 

Any thoughts on that?

Personally I would re-instate the valve cover lines from the crank case, they are for cooling the head, not having them is a bad thing, head will overheat and wreck stuff.

I would also remove the cam feed from the valve cover, without the low pressure supply going in all your doing is removing oretty much all of the high pressure supply to any of the motor.

Suzuki got the oil system pretty spot on, best thing to do is leave it as intended

[Maggotbreath]

I think we need some pictures of your setup.

[mikeyd]

You definitely need to block the 2 holes in the underside of the valve cover otherwise you loose all pressure out those holes, ask me how I know. Street bike or race bike?

[Fredrik_Steen]

Why are you blocking the oil to the cylinder head?

[TiZiK]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:35 AM, Fredrik_Steen said:

Why are you blocking the oil to the cylinder head?

9mm overbore cylinder block so had to machine cases to fit the larger sleeves. This cut into the oil galleries that feed the head through the studs so I blocked and fed externally. 

 To clarify, I didn't block the lines off that feed to the valve cover for the cooling circuit.

 

I have a few things to finish off and then I'll get this thing back on the bench. I'll update where I'm at as it's been awhile since I last worked on it

[TiZiK]

On 10/9/2020 at 4:04 PM, mikeyd said:

You definitely need to block the 2 holes in the underside of the valve cover otherwise you loose all pressure out those holes, ask me how I know. Street bike or race bike?

First thing I'll be checking. For now, it's a race bike. Maybe street it a few times here and there in the future but looking to make it a dedicated drag bike first. 

I think with the larger CC engine and turbo, it'll be hard to manage the excess heat on the street. Be cool to take it to a few bike nights to show it off. 

[Gixer1460]

11 hours ago, TiZiK said:

9mm overbore cylinder block so had to machine cases to fit the larger sleeves.

Wow! I didn't know anyone made 87mm pistons (assuming 1127 engine) or are they custom? I'd imagine liners would be thinner than recommended especially with a turbo?

[TiZiK]

On 10/19/2020 at 2:55 AM, Gixer1460 said:

Wow! I didn't know anyone made 87mm pistons (assuming 1127 engine) or are they custom? I'd imagine liners would be thinner than recommended especially with a turbo?

85mm APE Gorillia block.  Was a 1052 engine.

[TiZiK]

Well, that's sorted. Thanks guys! Special shout out the Mikeyd for the detailed pm. 

This is huge for me. Been plaguing me for almost 3 years. Had it stuck in a corner under a blanket. Now I can move on and finish the turbo system and tidy everything up before spring comes. 

For anyone in the future venturing down this path, this is one of those lesser known, and at least lesser talked about, issues you may run into when you dry block. 

[TiZiK]

Couple pics. Tonight I removed the line from the main gallery to the head. 

[MeanBean49]

8 hours ago, TiZiK said:

Couple pics. Tonight I removed the line from the main gallery to the head. 

I really dont understand what youve done here, that bit you have blanked off supplies the cooling oil for the cylinder head?

Why you are plumbing into the low pressure system doesnt make sense either.

Surely all you need to do is take an external feed from the crank plug and feed it into the cam plugs whic lh replicates how the system is designed to work.

That to me us a recipie for overheated head and cams, and a crank with too little supply pressure

Edited December 12, 2020 by MeanBean49

[TiZiK]

2 hours ago, MeanBean49 said:

I really dont understand what youve done here, that bit you have blanked off supplies the cooling oil for the cylinder head?

Why you are plumbing into the low pressure system doesnt make sense either.

Surely all you need to do is take an external feed from the crank plug and feed it into the cam plugs whic lh replicates how the system is designed to work.

That to me us a recipie for overheated head and cams, and a crank with too little supply pressure

Surely it'd be nice to get some recommendations for a solution when the question is first asked instead of the solution criticized after the fact.

Crank doesn't have a pressure issue.  The cams did.  The 2 ports I plugged in the valve cover were wide open causing a drop in oil pressure.  Now that they are plugged, no more squeaky squeak.  All the other ports and passages seem to have a restrictor in them to maintain pressure.

I'm no expert here.  Another member with a similar setup as mine (big bore, dry block, turbo) had the same issue and this was the solution for him and his engine has been good since.  Either way, something to be aware of.  Take it or leave it.

[MeanBean49]

54 minutes ago, TiZiK said:

Surely it'd be nice to get some recommendations for a solution when the question is first asked instead of the solution criticized after the fact.

Crank doesn't have a pressure issue.  The cams did.  The 2 ports I plugged in the valve cover were wide open causing a drop in oil pressure.  Now that they are plugged, no more squeaky squeak.  All the other ports and passages seem to have a restrictor in them to maintain pressure.

I'm no expert here.  Another member with a similar setup as mine (big bore, dry block, turbo) had the same issue and this was the solution for him and his engine has been good since.  Either way, something to be aware of.  Take it or leave it.

See above where I gave the same advice before you did it too! 

Those ports are open for a reason, they are for a cylinder head cooling oil from the low pressure system. You now have no cooling oil supply to the head.

And was refering to the crank oil pressrue now as a result of plumbing the high pressure system into the low pressure system.

Like I said the best way the oil system works is how suzuki designed it. Sounds like you have an espensive motor your likely to overheat and trash if your doing anymore than drag racing with it.

 

[TiZiK]

7 minutes ago, MeanBean49 said:

See above where I gave the same advice before you did it too! 

Those ports are open for a reason, they are for a cylinder head cooling oil from the low pressure system. You now have no cooling oil supply to the head.

And was refering to the crank oil pressrue now as a result of plumbing the high pressure system into the low pressure system.

Like I said the best way the oil system works is how suzuki designed it. Sounds like you have an espensive motor your likely to overheat and trash if your doing anymore than drag racing with it.

 

Not trying to have a pissing match here bud.  Read closer.  You mis-understood from the get go.

Main gallery line to head has been removed as stated right above the pic.

There are 6 other ports supplying oil to the head which all have restrictor to maintain pressure.  These 2 that I blocked have no restrictors and dump straight to atmosphere.

Also read the part where I said its a race bike, not a street bike.

Also read the part where another member with a similar set-up, who recommended this work around, has been running his like this for a couple years with no issues. Unless he went out of his way to fabricate a big lie which I highly doubt.

I'm just passing on the info for others in the future as none of this could be found online when I was initially searching before I even started to build the engine.  I just hope it helps someone else out. 

[MeanBean49]

18 hours ago, TiZiK said:

Not trying to have a pissing match here bud.  Read closer.  You mis-understood from the get go.

Main gallery line to head has been removed as stated right above the pic.

There are 6 other ports supplying oil to the head which all have restrictor to maintain pressure.  These 2 that I blocked have no restrictors and dump straight to atmosphere.

Also read the part where I said its a race bike, not a street bike.

Also read the part where another member with a similar set-up, who recommended this work around, has been running his like this for a couple years with no issues. Unless he went out of his way to fabricate a big lie which I highly doubt.

I'm just passing on the info for others in the future as none of this could be found online when I was initially searching before I even started to build the engine.  I just hope it helps someone else out. 

Read what ai told you properly, your cross connecting and messing with 2 seperate oil systems. One high pressure and one low pressure.

Those two ports are open to "atmosphere" are like that for a reason, they supply lots of low pressure, high flow oil for cooling of the cylinder head. You niw dont have any.

You also have 2 systems cross connected, with a high pressure system now bleeding off into a low pressure system, that lowers the pressure in the HP system, which includes the oil pressure supplied to the crank as welk as the cams.

You have messed with two oil systems and compromised both when all you needed to do to compensate for the dry block is run an external line from the hp gallery plug at the bottom up to a cam plug either side of the head which keeps the system working exactly as Suzuki intended. Everything they designed is meant that way for a reason

[TiZiK]

7 hours ago, MeanBean49 said:

Read what ai told you properly, your cross connecting and messing with 2 seperate oil systems. One high pressure and one low pressure.

Those two ports are open to "atmosphere" are like that for a reason, they supply lots of low pressure, high flow oil for cooling of the cylinder head. You niw dont have any.

You also have 2 systems cross connected, with a high pressure system now bleeding off into a low pressure system, that lowers the pressure in the HP system, which includes the oil pressure supplied to the crank as welk as the cams.

You have messed with two oil systems and compromised both when all you needed to do to compensate for the dry block is run an external line from the hp gallery plug at the bottom up to a cam plug either side of the head which keeps the system working exactly as Suzuki intended. Everything they designed is meant that way for a reason

Ok. You're right bud. Carry on...

[Maggotbreath]

Did you ever measure the oil pressure?

[TiZiK]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:34 PM, Maggotbreath said:

Did you ever measure the oil pressure?

Not yet. I have a few gauges here to connect and check just to confirm. 

Last time I messed with it (last winter) it wouldn't run long before it began to squeak so I stopped running it and put it aside. 

Now that it seems to have sufficient oil up top, it'll give me time to check pressures. 

Video of it running. Still a long road ahead but this was a big hurdle to get over

 

https://youtu.be/CaKRv80h79U

[george 1100]

On a side note, what's the reason for the Ape springs? High lift, increased rev limit? 

[meisseli]

4 hours ago, george 1100 said:

On a side note, what's the reason for the Ape springs? High lift, increased rev limit? 

Heavier springs In turbo use and  you can put more psi and valves wont start to float..

[george 1100]

Ah, right, gotcha