GS 1000 copper head gasket weeping oil

[Jmckechnie]

I have a problem with a high compression GS1000 engine- the man who owns the bike was told to run copper head gaskets in his 12:1 compression GS1000 but the copper gasket is leaking oil in a bad way. There are no o-rings in between the head/jugs, just the gasket. I’d like to switch to MLS or find a way to stop this copper one from leaking. Any suggestions? I’ve got no experience with copper head gaskets whatsoever 

[Arttu]

No personal experience with copper gaskets either but based on what I have heard they are kind of hit or miss with oil sealing. Some claim that they will be tight if you do it correctly while others say that they will weep oil sooner or later no matter what you do...

Personally I would just switch to MLS gasket if there are suitable ones available. They have been pretty much trouble free for me.

[Jmckechnie]

I hear ya on that Arttu! Anyone have any idea where to source some MLS gaskets ? The engine has an approximate bore of 73mm I think, it’s slightly larger then stock. 

[Gixer1460]

They can seal and seal well if you follow the requirements. 1. they need O rings, won't work without. 2. anneal the copper before every use 3. use Gaskacinch  or similar top and bottom.

Swapping to an MLS is an option but most are thinner than the copper you are removing and so will bump up the CR a bit. Obviously with the 'application' this may be a bonus or it could tip the balance on a 'on the edge' tune-up? 

[Reinhoud]

I couldn't get them free of leaks also, a fibre gasket will work. 

Wat size bore? If stock use a stock gasket, they're good!

[RickLee]

Copper gaskets a waste of time and labor, Reinhoud is right,  always find stock factory gaskets if you can.  They work!

[Jmckechnie]

8 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

They can seal and seal well if you follow the requirements. 1. they need O rings, won't work without. 2. anneal the copper before every use 3. use Gaskacinch  or similar top and bottom.

Swapping to an MLS is an option but most are thinner than the copper you are removing and so will bump up the CR a bit. Obviously with the 'application' this may be a bonus or it could tip the balance on a 'on the edge' tune-up? 

@Gixer1460

1. Are you referring to the o-rings that are typically used around the combustion chamber to seal cylinder pressure? Or are there supposed to be o-rings for the oil ( or coolant ) passages when applicable?

2. Annealing the copper- is there a tried/tested/unfailing method you could refer me to so I can ensure it’s done correctly?

3. I remember him using some kind of ‘glue’ on the gasket after the first attempt at installing a copper gasket. It improved the situation but not by much. 

 

@RickLeethanks for the suggestion! The owner of the bike has told me that WEISCO suggested using copper head gaskets with their 12:1 comp piston kits. Can you verify the composite gasket will hold under such conditions? I’ve been doing some research on gaskets and when to use them- according to HP Academy they don't recommend using composite gaskets for compression ratios above 11:1, and according to them 11:1 is Pushing your luck. I’ve got no experience whatsoever with head gasket selection- I’ve always just used what comes with them, and never altered a compression ratio so significantly that a new gasket was required. 

[Gixer1460]

The O rings I refer to are piano wire rings that are seated in grooves machined into the cylinder liner lip - about 1/8" back from the bore. The wire projects just enough to form a pinch point on the gasket increasing its seal through increased pressure. Never needed any other rubber o rings that weren't standard with the engine although mostly any pressurised oil up to the cylinder head was via external lines - only oil through the block was draining the head and under no pressure.

Regarding annealing - I used to do mine on a two ring gas burner / hob, to dull cherry red and straight into basin of cold water. At a push, at the track, a Mapp gas torch can be used but takes longer - easier to swap gaskets and re- do them at home!

[RickLee]

I should have paid closer attention to the compression ratio in your original post.  But to be truly honest I’m not sure about composite factory gaskets at that ratio.  I’d say go for it but depending on how often and how hard your going to run it.  I’d also make sure the head torque is perfect.    There is a copper gasket sealer that I’ve used on headers.  But that would be just an experiment on your bike.     

[Jmckechnie]

@RickLeeGenerally speaking, this will be a race only bike. For now to get a proper tune belt for the fuel injection, and to set my ignition tables etc. it will be installed in my GS 750 Trac generally speaking, this will be a race only bike. For now to get a proper tune for the fuel injection, and to set my ignition tables etc. it will be installed in my GS 750 chassis And will be my ‘daily driver’ until its tune is perfected

[RickLee]

Probably better listen to Gixer1460....  sounds like he’s had Real world experience w/ this.  Racing’s not my bag man.... As Austin powers would say.

[Poldark]

17 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

 

Regarding annealing - I used to do mine on a two ring gas burner / hob, to dull cherry red and straight into basin of cold water. At a push, at the track, a Mapp gas torch can be used but takes longer - easier to swap gaskets and re- do them at home!

Heating a material then rapidly cooling it is a "quench".  Annealing is heating then allowing a slow gradual cooling.  But this is where I stop due to lack of real race track experience.  

[Reinhoud]

13 hours ago, RickLee said:

I should have paid closer attention to the compression ratio in your original post.  But to be truly honest I’m not sure about composite factory gaskets at that ratio.  I’d say go for it but depending on how often and how hard your going to run it.  I’d also make sure the head torque is perfect.    There is a copper gasket sealer that I’ve used on headers.  But that would be just an experiment on your bike.     

I've got a Cometic fibre head gasket, and I can go to about 17psi boost without any problems.

[Jmckechnie]

@Reinhoudjust to be clear, that’s a composite cosmetic head gasket?

17psi boost on a GS1000!!?? What kinda rwhp do you see with that? I’m interested in the mods you’ve made to your motor to cope with that power-is there any where I can read up on your build?

[Gixer1460]

2 hours ago, Poldark said:

Heating a material then rapidly cooling it is a "quench".  Annealing is heating then allowing a slow gradual cooling.  But this is where I stop due to lack of real race track experience.  

Your 1st statement is correct. The 2nd is not. Annealing is the very act of heating a material to soften it - it may be cooled quickly or slowly ! It makes no difference to its properties. The rapid cool is obviously quicker and leaves less oxide on the metal. Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice!

I've nothing against MLS gaskets and most, if not all, turbo'd Superstreet bikes that are capable of 3 bar boost are using MLS. BUT they are also alloy blocked, alloy head and alloy pistons so relative expansion rates are broadly similar and are water cooled. Our older engines have steel liners with uncontrolled cooling - whether this makes a difference I don't know in regard to gasket performance?

[kochic]

I have a Suzuki GS1100GK MLS gasket on my GS1000.

 

[Poldark]

11 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Your 1st statement is correct. The 2nd is not. Annealing is the very act of heating a material to soften it - it may be cooled quickly or slowly ! It makes no difference to its properties. The rapid cool is obviously quicker and leaves less oxide on the metal. Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice!

The standard (generic) definition of annealing does include slow cooling.  Most of my engineering training focused on steel.  The cooling rate is very important.  Heat a piece of steel to glowing and quickly submerge it water will leave it hard and brittle; opposite of what annealing should produce.  However, the subject at hand is a copper gasket.  I just went and read that copper can be annealed and followed by a water quench without inducing too much hardness and brittleness.  Ok then. 

[Jmckechnie]

2 hours ago, kochic said:

I have a Suzuki GS1100GK MLS gasket on my GS1000.

 

I suppose that might work like a hot damn ! Where did you source your gasket from? 

[Jmckechnie]

A reply I received from Dynoman when I emailed their tech support yesterday:

”Hello Jason, We have been building the GS1000 motors for the street and track since 1978 when they first came out and can truthfully tell you that they are one of the best motors that Suzuki ever made. That said there are a few guidelines that that you must follow with any engine for it to be reliable. We address a few below: 

 

Copper gaskets are very strong and dissipate heat quickly, but are not as good at controlling oil as other gaskets. They do need to be annealed to make them softer for a better seal, and there are many different sealers available that work with them as well. They are very good for drag bikes and other race applications, however they are not our first choice for the street.  We can custom make an MLS gasket for you up to 76mm bore. The price would be $83 and take about 2 weeks production time.

You also have other problems that need to be addressed as well. We never run 12:1 CR with stock cams, as they require more lift and duration to work properly. With the stock cams your motor will make excessive heat and not make good power in the higher RPM range. You will also have excessively high static compression that can damage your motor very quickly. Please tell us your bore size and pistons manufacturer, what you are running for carbs the exhaust that you are running, and the type of riding that you like to do and we will be happy to go over your options. We would not recommend that you run the motor until it is built correctly to avoid damage.

Just let us know if you would like to order the MLS gasket and we will be happy to send you a PayPal invoice that you can pay with any major credit card.

If you have other questions please feel free to email us and we will get back to you ASAP.

 

Have a great weekend!”

 

 

anyone want to chime in on these points?

we ran the 1000 with stock cams, and to be honest we didn’t notice anything abnormal ? But we also weren’t monitoring cylinder head temp or engine temp much at all

[Reinhoud]

On 10/2/2020 at 11:53 PM, Jmckechnie said:

@Reinhoudjust to be clear, that’s a composite cosmetic head gasket?

17psi boost on a GS1000!!?? What kinda rwhp do you see with that? I’m interested in the mods you’ve made to your motor to cope with that power-is there any where I can read up on your build?

Yep.

It's not at 17psi anymore.

+8mm forged pistons, I put 493 rods and straight cut primairy gears, also billet clutch basket, 2nd gear is also welded.

No idea about the output.

When I ride it it's defenitly not slow, but also not overly fast, when I go out riding with my mate and I need to keep up again after some corners (he's a way better rider then me ;) ) I'm behind him again realy quick.

https://oldskoolsuzuki.info/forums/topic/3686-gs1000-turbo-attempt-no-2/

 

[kochic]

On 10/2/2020 at 11:54 PM, Jmckechnie said:

I suppose that might work like a hot damn ! Where did you source your gasket from? 

I bought a Vesrah gs1100gk gasket kit.

[Jmckechnie]

Update:

Had the head and cylinders inspected for flatness at a local machine shop- he took a tiny bit of material off the head to clean it up and otherwise said the cylinders were in great shape

 

As for gaskets I went with an MLS OEM gasket- didn’t have a large enough opening for the o-ring groove for the cam chain tunnel, and had no o-rings to seal the studs up to the head.

regardless, the install went smooth and guess what- not a drop of oil has passed by with hours of thrashing on the bike in its street tuning chassis. It’s now home back in the LSR chassis, ready to race when ever the boarders are open. 
 

Thanks fellas!

[Gixer1460]

Apparently gasket makers like Cometic have quite specific surface finish requirements for their gaskets in terms of flatness and surface roughness as the gasket coating seals less the rougher the surface is, ideal is 40 - 45Ra, whatever that is LOL!

[Reinhoud]

14 hours ago, Jmckechnie said:

Update:

Had the head and cylinders inspected for flatness at a local machine shop- he took a tiny bit of material off the head to clean it up and otherwise said the cylinders were in great shape

 

As for gaskets I went with an MLS OEM gasket- didn’t have a large enough opening for the o-ring groove for the cam chain tunnel, and had no o-rings to seal the studs up to the head.

regardless, the install went smooth and guess what- not a drop of oil has passed by with hours of thrashing on the bike in its street tuning chassis. It’s now home back in the LSR chassis, ready to race when ever the boarders are open. 
 

Thanks fellas!

Do you have the stock 70mm bore? If yes, then the stock gasket is the best choice

[Jmckechnie]

2 hours ago, Reinhoud said:

Do you have the stock 70mm bore? If yes, then the stock gasket is the best choice

This engine is slightly larger then stock, I think something like 1080 or 1090cc. I can’t remember exactly what bore is, probably 1mm over stock.