HP injection pump killing battery

[skelly]

Righty.

My Katana battery is being killed by my fuel injection pump its a Sytec OTP017 which is the same as a bosch 0580464070.

If I trundle around at low revs with the lights on it just wipes out the battery, I have used LED bulbs where possible but the old GSX 1000 generator is just not up to the job of keeping up with demand.

The generator is working properly and initial charging voltage is good.

I run 3 bar fuel pressure.

So...

What pump can I use that sits outside the fuel tank and will supply enough fuel for a naturally aspirated 1170 engine that produces around 140BHP but has a low current draw ?

Any ideas ?

Cheers.

Skelly.

 

[Screwriverracing]

 Most fuel injection pumps will draw similar current, I'm having similar problems. You need to upgrade the charging system, possible fix is outboard alternator.

Cheers SRR

[Arttu]

That's slightly tricky problem indeed. Based on experiments with my GSX maximum constant current draw for the pump that charging system can support is around 5A. And typically external aftermarket EFI pumps draw 7-10A. However, there are few options to solve this.

Most straightforward option would be getting a pump that consumes less current. For you this would be a viable option since you don't need massive fuel flow. But the problem would be finding a suitable pump. Old Kwak GPZ1100 pump would be fine as it draws only about 3-4A but working ones are probably very thin on earth. I haven't measured any OEM pumps from modern EFI bikes but I guess most of them would have pretty low power demand as they don't have too high flow figures either. Only problem is that they are mainly in-tank versions. If you don't want to modify the tank you can maybe make a small external intermediate tank for the pump. There are also some external OEM pumps on "modern" bikes but they are pretty rare. Early Busa is one example that comes to my mind.

Like said most external pumps intended for cars tend to have too high current draw but there are some exceptions. Best that I have measured is Mallory 4060 FI that was taking about 4-5A and I run it on my GSX for years. But it seems to be pretty pricey today and in addition it eats motor brushes a bit too quickly for street use. Just recently I also tested one generic EFI pump that had quite reasonable current draw, around 6A if I recall correctly. I don't remember model number but I can try to dig it out if needed.

Then one option is to reduce voltage supplied to the pump. Typically you can cut consumption to about a half of the full power with this method. On my turbo GSX I have a circuit that runs pump at reduced power at low load and switches to full power when more fuel is needed. On your case you could run it constantly at low power. Voltage reduction can be done with relatively simple PWM circuit. I may have some spare units still left if you are interested. Small voltage drop could be done also with suitable series resistor but efficiency will be worse and heat from the resistor can become a problem pretty quickly.

Dropping the fuel pressure helps a bit as well. But you can't go much lower than 3 bars without hurting injector spray quality. 

[Gixer1460]

Sorry can't help on this one as a) my GSXR has better alt. output and b) I added a bigger AH battery to give a better buffer.

Was going to suggest dropping FP and increase opening times - but Arttu's PWM solution sound the better option? @Arttu- on 1/2 power do you still need to adjust inj. times to compensate - or run an alternate map?

[Arttu]

1 hour ago, Gixer1460 said:

@Arttu- on 1/2 power do you still need to adjust inj. times to compensate - or run an alternate map?

Nope. The fuel pressure regulator still keeps the fuel pressure constant. So as long as switching to full power happens before demand exceeds supply on half power there is no change in fuel pressure and no need to compensate anything.

[Gixer1460]

29 minutes ago, Arttu said:

Nope. The fuel pressure regulator still keeps the fuel pressure constant. So as long as switching to full power happens before demand exceeds supply on half power there is no change in fuel pressure and no need to compensate anything.

Hmmmm! I understand the PWM principle and can glue wires together well enough but creating circuits is beyond my understanding - do you have a sketch or circuit diagram to give it a go....... no point having a 400hp pump when bike only needs a 200hp one!

[Captain Chaos]

11 hours ago, Arttu said:

There are also some external OEM pumps on "modern" bikes but they are pretty rare. Early Busa is one example that comes to my mind.

Hond@ Varadero (the later EFI one), some '90s Guzzis, probably a few more

[Arttu]

6 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Hmmmm! I understand the PWM principle and can glue wires together well enough but creating circuits is beyond my understanding - do you have a sketch or circuit diagram to give it a go....... no point having a 400hp pump when bike only needs a 200hp one!

Here's the schematic: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/MSextra/pump_drw.pdf

R3 adjusts the duty cycle. Rest of the connections are commented in the diagram.

And here's how the thing looks in flesh.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Arttu

[skelly]

Hmm, interesting..

Just pulled this info from another forum regarding Varadero fuel pumps...

Haynes has some info
Xl-3 model pumup is gq45a
Xl-4 to 6 is gq46a
Xl-7 on is gq46b

Fuel press at idle 46 to 53 psi
Minimum fuel delivery 270cc every 10 seconds

Taking this info at face value it may well be worth looking into providing the current draw is not too great.

I like Artu's idea too..

[jonny1bump]

5 hours ago, Arttu said:

Here's the schematic: http://www.iki.fi/arttuh/MSextra/pump_drw.pdf

R3 adjusts the duty cycle. Rest of the connections are commented in the diagram.

And here's how the thing looks in flesh.

Captain another wiring diagram for the vault.

[skelly]

@ArttuI like the idea of your pump controller but how does it know when to run the pump in fast speed ?

And how much would you charge me to make one ?

Cheers.

Skelly.

[Arttu]

I'm using one general purpose output from the ECU for speed control. Turning the output on when the MAP goes above certain value. Alternatively you can use simple pressure switch (hobbs switch) for the same if you don't have suitable outputs available. But since you have a NA engine you shouldn't need full speed at all.

The price would be probably somewhere between 30-50 Euros. I need to check if I have anything ready or if I need to get a new batch of PCBs made. Won't affect to the price but lead time will be longer if I have to order stuff.

[Gixer1460]

Thanks for the circuit diagram which I sort of followed, although some of the component symbols are beyond me and none of the components were listed in my freebie PCB designer software so got a bit stuck ! You may have another sale here - even a kit of parts would be good - metal gluing is easy, and satisfying!

[skelly]

Interesting stuff.

Arrtu that may be an option for me, however I have found this fuel pump 

http://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/flutra-competition-fuel-injection-pump-3-bar-130-litres-hour-960/

Which supplies only 130 LPH, 3 Bar. and upto 5.5 Amps current draw, its still too much but its a start.

From all my searching around this seems to be a possible option for me.

Just in case anyone is wondering how much fuel you need for your bike, a very simple but rough calculation is as follows..

an engine typically requires .5 pounds of fuel per horsepower every hour at wide open throttle.

So,

Horsepower X 0.5 /6 (weight of a gallon of fuel)

So in the case of my katana 150BHP X 0.5 = 75 / 6 = 12.5 gallons per hour. 

or 57 liters per hour.

So you can all see why my current pump is slight overkill.

Skel.

 

[Arttu]

Yep, that pump looks pretty good. Some voltage drop for that and you may get to 3A level

I'll check my stocks for pump controller parts and let you know... Parts kit is possible too but then it's your own headache to make it working

[jensvonbustenskjold]

On 12/16/2018 at 10:26 PM, skelly said:

I have used LED bulbs where possible 

 

 

Out of curiosity, which bulbs are swopped with LEDs?

I think I've managed them all. Changed the headlight though 

[Gixer1460]

Thinking about std. Katana wiring - changing all the bulbs to LED won't make a bit of difference, even turning them off as that age of alternator had one phase feeding the lights directly. If you re-wire the RR output all to battery it may help? They are still pretty piss poor at best of times ...... 180 - 200w output I seem to remember?

[jensvonbustenskjold]

You might be right. I do not know the Katana that well. Here's my numbers for my GS. 

Made a section for total, and one with "normal run". I shaved of approx 54W, and it's almost covering for the ECU/Pump.

 

I also came across a stator from Hayabyus 1300 with almost gs1000 specs. Don't remember the year. I'm going to make some control measurements, and see if it's possible to fit it. That would be an upgrade in power I suppose.

 

[Gixer1460]

If those are figures for an H4 LED headlamp I think they are a bit pessimistic (unless that is a measured figure) as the one i've got in my daily is about 9w dip and 18w main - each side is 3No. Cree type LEDs, both sides turn on for High beam! Don't forget the Horn ! Saw a bike that died everytime you beeped the horn - voltage / current was so marginal that the horn tipped it over the edge LOL!

Edited January 4, 2019 by Gixer1460

[jensvonbustenskjold]

22 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

Don't forget the Horn ! Say a bike that died everytime you beeped the horn - voltage / current was so marginal that the horn tipped it over the edge LOL!

 

Lol! My old bike was like that : when I honked the headlight was dimmed with about 80%... Didn't see a thing....

[skelly]

Ok, 

My katana is completely rewired and everything is powered through relays, its a tidy job and everything is protected in heat shrink.

I have ran all three phases through a H***a type reg rec so one phase no longer goes around the lighting circuit.

So far I have changed the taillight bulb to LED, I'm in the process of changing the clock illumination bulbs to blue LED's and the high beam warning light also.

I haven't bothered with the indicators, neutral or oil light as they are rarely on.

The headlight is an interesting one as some LED headlight bulbs are fan cooled which defeats the purpose of this thread.

Some LED headlight bulbs are basically shit so its important to get one with a built in heat sink and correct placement of the LED's so as not to give a fuzzy and random beam pattern.

So after doing some research I bought this. https://www.Eblag.co.uk/itm/Super-Bright-Headlight-Bulb-LED-Motorcycle-1x-H4-BA20D-DC-Beam-Bulb-DC-12V-UK/223059181457?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

And this, https://www.Eblag.co.uk/itm/H4-LED-3-COB-Motorcycle-Headlight-Lamp-Bulb-6000K-Hi-Lo-Beam-Light-White-18W-XB/143069414161?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

If these two turn out to be a load of crap then I will get this, https://www.Eblag.co.uk/itm/Novsight-H4-Fanless-Hi-Low-LED-Headlight-Bulbs-Conversion-Kit-White-50W-10000LM/263981632159?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

If that turns out to be shite, I have no idea.

I will post my findings on here if any of you are interested.

The fuel pump that I mentioned above from McGill motorsport arrived the day after I ordered it (very impressed) so I will stick that on and see what happens.

Just as a precautionary measure I will be sending my generator stator off to either Westcountry windings or Rex's speedshop to have it rewound which will hopefully improve the output.

Cheers.

Skel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Chaos]

11 hours ago, skelly said:

I will post my findings on here if any of you are interested.

yes please

[nlovien]

sounds like there's a demand for a mod kit to fit a more efficient rare earth type alternator from a more modern bike 

also wondering if you could piggy back a 2nd alternator ? - once did this by using a housing from an engine that had an alt that wasn't direct on crank ( plenty options ) - made an adaptor plate to fit in place of sprocket cover and spun the alt. via a direct link to the front sprocket bolt - ok not much use when stationary but it did provide enough added juice when used in anger - could be using the 1st option - more modern alt would make this option better - - idea copied from some old school endurance bike set ups

[Gixer1460]

As i'm no physics major i'll ask the Q - does the magnet strength have any bearing on the eventual output?  I see that a lot of the hybrid / electric vehicles use high efficiency motors having neodymium magnets in place of the old ferrite magnets. All of these rotors are a) over 35+ yrs old, b) heavy c) magnetically 'tired' - so I was thinking, break out the old ferrite and add back lots of new neodymium bar magnets and re-glue...........would it work?

[jensvonbustenskjold]

You are right, @Gixer1460

I do have knowledge of generator systems while working on synchronous machines the last 8 years now. The asynchronous machines in our bikes I know very little of, but from my former company we used to re-energize permanent magnets; charging them with DC for about 12-18 hours. This was industrial machines which had ran 24/7 in 20-30 years. How applicable it is to our generators I'm not sure. 

When it comes to generator design the magnetic field is divided into moving magnets and the flux in the core. Looking into the space we are balancing flux density of the core with copper for the current generated. So increasing the magnet itself isn't enough, we have to look at the core and field. 

As I said, I'm not that familiar with MC generators. What I would like to do is lower the voltage, maybe reduce amount of coils, and increase core and copper. 75V AC for creating stable 14.7 VDC is very high for todays standard. I have removed my old stator and I intent to do some resource. The easiest way is finding a larger stator from another bike (like the hayabusa), or make one from skratch. 

There's a race kit generator on the market from Electrex. As you can se from the standard stator kit, it has 18 coils.

The race kit on the other hand has only 12 coils. They have reduced with 2 coils per phase! Additionally they have moved the core on the outside, getting more space for both core and coil. A new rotor with magnets is also included in this kit. These magnets are most likely stronger than the original, @Gixer1460

 

The race kit is quite expensive (€500). I've did some research for prices of the core only, and ordered from Asia it's only €10. A DIY version is possible. 

The original stator has 18 coils, and at 5000 rpm its generating 75VAC. That's 43.3VAC phase voltage, which again is 36,1VAC per coil. By removing one coil we're down to 62,4VAC at 5000rpm. I'm not sure what voltage at idle, I have not measured. The race kit I assume has stronger magnets, and generates more voltage per pole.

Edited January 5, 2019 by jensvonbustenskjold