GSXR1100W and Bandit 1250 interchangeability

[markfoggy]

Yeah, I'm going to be doing this.

Is time 

In true faith,  Boilers should be liberated..

This is a contentious issue for this site.

@ mods

Are we breaking the MFRules?

 

 

[Gammaboy]

On 5/25/2019 at 10:53 AM, Cheeky4648 said:

@Gammaboyon Sunday or Monday I can give you measurements of block and head for 1250 if you need things like stud spacing and block height etc. 

1250 crank won’t fit 1100. The rod bearings are the same but mains are smaller. Also crank gear is much larger. 

Smaller mains *might* work with 750 cases - I believe the 1100 and RF900 shared main sizes, but the 750s are smaller... Primary gear size is probably the killer though. Sealing issues at the front of the cam chain tunnel would be a pain, but not insurmountable if you look at what they do to put gsxr heads on GSXs

Starting to sound like a big bored 1100 is the only answer for me at some point in the future - pity, 1250 engines are pretty cheap down here, and a 1250cc SB6 wouldn't wear front tyres out very often.

[Captain Chaos]

I suppose the 1250 engine doesn't fit in the Bim frame?

[Cheeky4648]

6 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

I suppose the 1250 engine doesn't fit in the Bim frame?

Bim? @Captain Chaos

[Cheeky4648]

9 hours ago, Gammaboy said:

Smaller mains *might* work with 750 cases - I believe the 1100 and RF900 shared main sizes, but the 750s are smaller... Primary gear size is probably the killer though. Sealing issues at the front of the cam chain tunnel would be a pain, but not insurmountable if you look at what they do to put gsxr heads on GSXs

Agree with you on the above  

Starting to sound like a big bored 1100 is the only answer for me at some point in the future - pity, 1250 engines are pretty cheap down here, and a 1250cc SB6 wouldn't wear front tyres out very often.

Widest point on the cylinder head is 16 1/2 inches so you may be able to shoehorn a 1250 in somehow. I’ve taken mine out to 1316cc  

 

[markfoggy]

I am starting to think that GSF barrels and head will not go on W bottom end, Stroke on the W crank is a long way out.

 

[Captain Chaos]

4 hours ago, Cheeky4648 said:

Bim? @Captain Chaos

Bimota SB6

[Captain Chaos]

I think the problem with shoe-horning a 1250 into the Bimota is the clutch cover, not the cilinder head

[markfoggy]

:lol: that is definitely what this forum and angle grinders are for.

[Cheeky4648]

2 hours ago, markfoggy said:

I am starting to think that GSF barrels and head will not go on W bottom end, Stroke on the W crank is a long way out.

 

Only 4mm difference. Not insurmountable. 

[markfoggy]

Yeah, fine if you aren't looking at a water jacket.

Hmmm, I think it's going to be 5,  It's not a stopper.

I don't have cash to throw at this and buy both engines.

Don't say any more or we'll end up in an Arms Race.

You know that if we unravel how to build a cheap 150hp motor the prices will go through the roof.

[Askamaskinservice]

18 minutes ago, markfoggy said:

I have cash to throw at this and buy both engines.

Helped you abit there, now we are curious about if it's even doable.

And you seem most qualified for the task............ is it working.

[markfoggy]

I want it to work, but is No.

I will have to go, GSF and stop with ideas about W comparability. 

Is so close that I can smell it, but it just does not quite go..

Looks like I will only get to engine plates in the winter.

I have another frame so that can get cut to get the engine in.

I need to get my focus back on rolling chassis.

I need to get this shit working first

 

 

[Askamaskinservice]

Naah, you need a nice sideproject.

You know it's the right thing to doo.

[Gammaboy]

9 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

I think the problem with shoe-horning a 1250 into the Bimota is the clutch cover, not the cilinder head

Clutch cover and cylinder head - there's no mounting points to hag the engine from (and yes, the very first SB6s used WN heads with no head steady point, but they at least had the oil gallery blanking plugs to use).

[Madb]

On 5/26/2019 at 4:38 AM, Gammaboy said:

Smaller mains *might* work with 750 cases - I believe the 1100 and RF900 shared main sizes, but the 750s are smaller... Primary gear size is probably the killer though. Sealing issues at the front of the cam chain tunnel would be a pain, but not insurmountable if you look at what they do to put gsxr heads on GSXs

Starting to sound like a big bored 1100 is the only answer for me at some point in the future - pity, 1250 engines are pretty cheap down here, and a 1250cc SB6 wouldn't wear front tyres out very often.

the mains shells on all the w/c motors from 600cc to 1100cc are the same. the big end shells are different, tho.

the clutches only match the the engine cc they came out of  as the outer gear to crank gear very in size.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Madb

[Gammaboy]

14 hours ago, Madb said:

the mains shells on all the w/c motors from 600cc to 1100cc are the same. the big end shells are different, tho.

the clutches only match the the engine cc they came out of  as the outer gear to crank gear very in size. 

  

That'll teach me to rely on memory and not look at the parts fische.

Hmmmm. wonder if one of the variety of clutch gears would work with the 1250 primary. Have seen inserts used to allow smaller mains fitted in car engines (putting 351C cranks in 351W blocks to give a taller deck height with the small diameter mains to allow it to rev - back before SVO blocks were a thing), wonder if it could be done sucessfully here?

[markfoggy]

Just to recap, 1250 barrels will fit on W, but bore is very short.

Blandit 1250 head is tiny ports, but all big valves fit the 1250 head, but W head will not go straight on 1250. 

Rod ends of W have smaller Big end than Busa, so could be possible with an as yet undisclosed rod that would work with  Busa pistons into a GSF top end.

Nothing from  base gasket down looks useful from 1250 world.

I'm now guessing that we would need a long throw crank, but I'm guessing that this doesn't exist even in GSXR world.

Cheeky has sent some pics to me of a 1250 clutch basket. no Mickey M steel bands, that thing looks like it could be amazing. Will certainly never fit in 11 cases, I'm not sure it would go in Busa.

I can't see it working in 1400 either, that just looks like gsxr cases to me.

So...what is going on with that 1400 crank?

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by markfoggy
Accuracy

[Gammaboy]

On 6/2/2019 at 9:05 AM, markfoggy said:

Rod ends of W have smaller Big end than Busa, so could be possible with an as yet undisclosed rod that would work with  Busa pistons into a GSF top end.

 

Any half decent machine shop can rebush the small end down to 18mm. Hell, a good one can offset bush it to tickle the rod length a mm or so.

[Cheeky4648]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:59 PM, Gammaboy said:

Any half decent machine shop can rebush the small end down to 18mm. Hell, a good one can offset bush it to tickle the rod length a mm or so.

1100w has same con rod big end as hayabusa no difference in shell part numbers. 

Same shells in 1100gsxr/1200 bandit/ hayabusa and 1250 bandit. 

1250 bandit is already 18mm little end. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Cheeky4648

[manden]

I was thinking of the 1100 head on an 1250 motor in an rf900 frame

[Gammaboy]

9 hours ago, manden said:

I was thinking of the 1100 head on an 1250 motor in an rf900 frame

Use the RF900 head - the downdraft ports are better. Chuck it on EFi or respace SRAD carbs I guess.

[Andyg]

Hi,

I'm new to this site. however, i'm doing something similar to Cheeky4648.

Is that a busa arm you have in the back for the 6" rim. If so how much trouble as i have one in garage ready. Is it just a dog bone issue or do i need to look for other issues.

PS, does anyone know who stocks a 4 into 1 set of headers or do the 1250 bandit ones fit up.

Cheers

Andy

[markfoggy]

Hi Andy, a lot of tbc involved here.

I'm thinking 6" rim might be a little tight, but chassis mods will involve loads of welding to get a 1250 into the frame anyway, so a bit of channel work for chain clearance should not be much more work.

Arrows do a nice set of headers for the 1250..

[Cheeky4648]

On 7/4/2019 at 9:03 AM, Andyg said:

Hi,

I'm new to this site. however, i'm doing something similar to Cheeky4648.

Is that a busa arm you have in the back for the 6" rim. If so how much trouble as i have one in garage ready. Is it just a dog bone issue or do i need to look for other issues.

PS, does anyone know who stocks a 4 into 1 set of headers or do the 1250 bandit ones fit up.

Cheers

Andy

I would say the busa arm will fit. The one in mine is a srad750 with gsxr1000 08 wheel and I don’t see any problems with the chain run. I am still going through the rear shock and linkage saga but I think the gsxr1000 07/08 shock and linkage is the one I will end up using as in pic. Bushings need making for the linkage pivot eye on frame and also 6mm spacer to space top shock mount out from frame. 

Its not easy getting a 1250 in a 750w as no mounting point on the frame is usable for the engine. Therefore lots of setting up and measurements and new mounts to make. Also chopping the bottom frame rails. 

When I had engine in the right place I started by fixing the front engine mounts as these were just two plates and then it allowed me to orient the engine. As you can see in the other pics the engine mounts are way different  

Hope this helps @Andyg

Edited July 6, 2019 by Cheeky4648