No Oil to Cams after dryblocking and top end oiler kit install

[TiZiK]

Would you have a pic of the weep holes you mentioned?

[mikeyd]

Sorry dude, cover is back on the be and i'm hoping will stay that way until mid summer! But i will take a pic next time it's off.  If u look at the underside of the valve cover where the hose bolts into, my 87 has a hole on each side in the passage casting, why they were put there is beyond me.

[TiZiK]

Being that it the cooling circuit, I'm gonna assume it's just to flood the head with oil to sweep away heat. Beyond that, I have no clue. 

Either way, it's all good man. I got mine sorted for the time being as well and like you, I'm hoping to not have to remove that valve cover till much later this year as well. 

Btw, are these the modified oil pressure relief valves you have? If so, with 2 installed, what kind of oil pressures are you seeing?

I have 2 as well but haven't checked pressures yet. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by TiZiK

[Pasis]

3 hours ago, TiZiK said:

Being that it the cooling circuit, I'm gonna assume it's just to flood the head with oil to sweep away heat. Beyond that, I have no clue. 

Either way, it's all good man. I got mine sorted for the time being as well and like you, I'm hoping to not have to remove that valve cover till much later this year as well. 

Btw, are these the modified oil pressure relief valves you have? If so, with 2 installed, what kind of oil pressures are you seeing?

I have 2 as well but haven't checked pressures yet. 

Has anyone tried to disassemble these valves? I want to understand why they are so expensive)

[TiZiK]

I tried to dis-assemble the stock one but stopped as I didn't see how I would put it back together without proper tooling\machines. 

Haven't tried to dis-assemble the modified ones. Not sure myself why they cost so much either. Its just re-shimming the spring for a higher relief pressure and crimping it back together. 

 

Maybe because they are the only ones selling them??? 

[mikeyd]

Those are the ones i have.  It was something like 160 psi at idle-cold. Super crazy pressure! If you use both of them, you have to let the bike warm up for like 10 minutes before giving it gas or else it blows the oil filter out. I pulled the oil pan one and sent it back to Dick (having the luxury of being a few towns over) to have a lighter spring put in because it was just too much presure.  If i had a LSR bike or street racer or something it wouldn't be a big deal but for drag racing i want as little heat as possible. But with just the one in the cases i'm seeing 78 psi - no more eating bearings! I have taken apart the one and it's a bigger ball bearing, bigger spring and different size flow hole and tapped/machined for the cap. If it was easy everyone would make them - worth the money in piece of mind and saved bearings alone.

P.S. i'm running 10w40.

[Gixer1460]

Why increase oil pressure? A stock GSXR bleeds off about 10 - 20% oil pressure / flow at max rpm and like 75% at idle. Shell bearings won't function any better with more than 40 odd psi pressure supplied at the bearing..................unless the bearing is worn out!

[TiZiK]

@mikeydWould you know the increase in pressure by just swapping out the relief valve in the oil pan? And is 1 for the cooling circuit and 1 for the pressure circuit? if so, which is which?  Hard to make out the oiling diagram in my manual

The second one thats threaded into the pump has a different thread size.  On my engine, the 1052, the stock valve is 14mm x 1.25 but the modified valves I have are 16mm x 1.25.  The 1 in my oil pan is 16mm tho

Edited January 13, 2018 by TiZiK

[mikeyd]

Yeah, TiZiK, the oil pan ones are all the same - make sure you have two different lengths (2 different valves) Because my understanding is all the oil cooled valves are the same gsxr 750/1100, Katana 600/750/1100 So if you have one that doesn't fit maybe you have two of the same? I'm not sure which feeds which but just having one brings oil preesure to around 77 and having two was doubling that for me.

Gixer1460,  What's the main reason for bearing failure? I'm doing anything i can to keep this motor together. These valves are not allowing as much bleed-off. Do i need more oil pressure because i tapped into the main galley to feed the turbo,? Do i need them to get more oil into the rod bearings faster because it has to go through the crank first? does the higher pressure blow clutch material more efficiently out of my bearings to save them? Did i need a lot more oil to the top end? Does it save my motor when i chop the throttle at the end of of run and the oil pressure used to go to zero? does it cool the motor better because i used to be able to cook dinner on it after a run. All i know is that Dick Speed and a couple of his customers went years without any bearing failures and thats on Nitrous motors. It's going to be hard to judge now because this is the first time i also had all the bearings coated. I'll let you know what happens in a couple months!

[TiZiK]

I just found his listings again and he now has 2 different ones.  1 for the pan.  1 for the pump.  Clearly they are different thread pitches.  I sent him a message and asked him a couple questions to help clarify the differences and what pressures I should expect to see with just the one in the pan swapped out for one of his.

Out of curiosity, is your engine dry blocked?

[Pasis]

Are there any problems with excessive lubrication of the turbine at such a high pressure? Will oil leak through the turbine shaft, such a high pressure? It's about a turbine that uses sliding bearings.

[Reinhoud]

When you make the holes 1 or 1.5mm bigger where the oil goes up through normally you don't need a top end oiler, when used thicker studs.

 

You did connect the top end oiler to the oil feed instead of the drain?  I've seen that before..

[Arttu]

3 hours ago, Pasis said:

Are there any problems with excessive lubrication of the turbine at such a high pressure? Will oil leak through the turbine shaft, such a high pressure? It's about a turbine that uses sliding bearings.

I'm not sure if excessive pressure will cause leaking, granted that oil return can keep up. Naturally higher pressure means also higher flow through the turbo so if return is marginal it can cause leaking.

But too high pressure increases drag for the turbine shaft that slows down spooling. I have noticed this by my self. Adjusting oil pressure from 6-7 bars to 2-3 bars made spool-up noticeably faster. 

[Gixer1460]

The point I was making is a std GSXR puts out more pressure / flow than it can deal with so providing more is counterproductive. Pressure is developed once all the galleries are full and if the bearing clearances / oil jets / oil bleeds are the same orifice size then delivered oil pressure will be exactly the same. Compressing oil, just like any fluid, increases its temp so if you had cooling problems - additional heating of the oil ain't gonna help. Oil isn't the best for picking up and releasing heat - engine cooling problems = you want more oil capacity and better oil cooling  which is opposite to most drag racers requirements! If you are losing pressure at the strip on shut off, you likely have a minimal oil capacity surge problem, this is why busa's were doing bearings when using flat shallow sumps - the swinging pick-ups helped until everyone discovered dry sumps! These points aren't a dig - just observations - take them or leave them but i've never run a bearing - ever.......................except when the pump tried to pump an M6 nut, did a bit more damage than a few bearings!

[mikeyd]

TiZiK, yes dry blocked.

Pasis, no problems with excessive oil in the turbo but there is a restrictor in the line. And the turbo has a pretty big return with a scavenge pump so it never smokes.

Reinhoud, What a Duh! moment! never thought to enlarge the holes! Some guys said to use tapered Busa studs though. yes oil feed out of valve cover to cams. But now the case bore is big enough that its scraping the left side galley (super thin you can almost see light through it) so i didn't want any suprises later.

Arttu, Thanks for the info, never thought that would cause a problem and yes the bike lags off the line.

Gixer1460, I never followed the less oil makes more power?less windage- i run 5 1/2 quarts.  The oil pressure going to zero when cutting the throttle i heard is a common problem with a lot of different bikes that race, that happened with the standard oem oil pressure jets. Never considered the heat thing but the bike is doing a burnout, a run, and a drive back to the pits with a fan on it until the next run. Since i redid the timing (starts at 34 and retards 9 degrees) and degreed the cams it ran a lot cooler. I had  the weirdest problem though - it would eat crank bearings and the rod bearings would be fine? Usually its opposite. It does have a billet crank, if that matters. I'm waiting to get out this season with the new coated bearings (from Calico coatings) to see if that makes a difference.

Thanks for all the info guys, you gave me a lot to watch out for. Glad i joined this site!

[CockneyRick]

I just read this for curiosity & now my head hurts  

[nlovien]

I can see surging losing oil pressure no issues there, I can't see more pressure preventing it mikeyd you've listed some interesting thoughts on this or more specific to crank failure

I can see fitting a better quality - more accurate relief valve as a good fix ( known fix on another engine type where its the factory relief valve that,s dodgy - not so much the pressure)

I can see horrible things happening to the oil - like foam / aeration causing momentary pressure loss ( known crank destroyer  on another type of engine) - could this be related to how the turbo oil return feed is routed ? I wouldn't like to be putting this into the sump anywhere near the oil pick up without thinking about it - can see how this could cause foaming due to the heat of the oli from the turbo + the rapid expansion into the large diameter vent pipe = vapourised oil versus liquid ??? - dunno, known issue with them 4 wheeled things

[Pasis]

For most turbines with a plain bearing require a large amount of oil for normal working and cooling. It is not recommended to install a too small restrictor, as on turbines with a ball bearing.

[mikeyd]

The turbo return dumps into the clutch cover spacer - that's how most of them are. Lol- dumping super hot oil onto an already hot clutch. I played with a few different size jets and went with the biggest one i could before it starts to blow by the turbo bearing. Actually, this turbo has been going a couple years now - no problems. I've heard most race guys rebuild them at the end of every race season.  Rebuilding isn't too bad, wonder if a ball bearing turbo lasts a lot longer?