No Oil to Cams after dryblocking and top end oiler kit install

[TiZiK]

Hey all;

Just got my new engine installed.  After having it idle for a bit to check settings etc, the top end started to squeak.  I immediately shut it down! 

The engine is an 85mm block.  Its been dry blocked and I added a top end oiler kit from Dave at FBM. I checked for oil at the entry to the cam cover from the Y pipe, good oil flow there.  However, taking off the banjo bolt (the one from the cam cover) to the top end oiler cam link, oil barely trickles out, hence no oil to the cams.

Before I tear the cam cover off, has anyone experienced this?  Any ideas? 

Curious as to why theres good oil pressure going into the cam cover, but none coming out

Any help appreciated.

[TiZiK]

Pulled the cam cover. Intake cam is fooked. Exhaust is ok tho. Barely any oil up there. 

I'm baffled as to why there's no oil getting through to the cams and rockers. Guess its time to pull the cam and see if I can see more

[Gixer1460]

When you say 'dry blocked' it - you mean no oil up the studs and so have a line or two from crankcase to head? Pictures would be useful. Hate to say it but if the cam is gone the head will be trolleyed as well - ali cam bearings always lose to steel!

[TiZiK]

Yes. The oil gallery in the case was blocked. The top end oiler kit attaches to the cam cover to feed oil to cams... apparently.  

Was I suppose to run a line from somewhere else?

I searched and searched on dry blocking and didn't come across any mention of having to run a line from elsewhere. 

Luckily, the head is ok. Guess I had enough assembly lube to save it. Just the intake lobes got knackered. 

Here's a pic showing the top end oiler kit. 

[TiZiK]

Just pulled the intake cam. Got really lucky. No damage to head at all. 

 

Did I make a mistake in assuming that with the top end oiler connected the way it is, that that'd be enough oil?

[Gixer1460]

Just your description is wrong! 'Dry blocking' has no oil flowing through the block AT ALL - the galleries at the bottom are blocked off and an external oil line is used from the main gallery to the cams directly. You have an 'auxillary' feed from the low pressure / high flow cooling gallery. Does beg the question why you had no oil from the cases though.........if you don't have an external feed! And that connection on its own won't provide the oil pressure required!

[TiZiK]

6 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

Just your description is wrong! 'Dry blocking' has no oil flowing through the block AT ALL - the galleries at the bottom are blocked off and an external oil line is used from the main gallery to the cams directly. You have an 'auxillary' feed from the low pressure / high flow cooling gallery. Does beg the question why you had no oil from the cases though.........if you don't have an external feed! And that connection on its own won't provide the oil pressure required!

That's right. No oil through the block at all. 

 

So I was wrong in assuming that the connection currently on the top end oiler was sufficient enough. F#@k! At least the head is ok and I have spare cams and rockers. 

 

Should I do away with the small line from the cam cover and run another line from the main gallery?

 

Possibly this one here in the pic?

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by TiZiK

[clivegto]

Bit like this on my old 1340 motor. Adaptor bolt is missing from pic as I borrowed it for a turbo motor. This one was not blocked of inside.

[suzook12]

The link you have to the top of the rocker box could well be your issue. That line is cooling oil, which could well have very little restriction to flow, which would cause your cam /rocker lube oil to go for cooling instead... Do you still have the "y" pipes connected at back of cylinder, that is the circuit you have tapped in to. For cams, I have only ever tapped from main gallery, which is where your cams would have been fed from originally.

[Gixer1460]

But real question is, why no oil up barrels............or did you block off the gallery at the base of the barrels?

[no class]

Probaby over-bored the cases....

[TiZiK]

1 minute ago, Gixer1460 said:

But real question is, why no oil up barrels............or did you block off the gallery at the base of the barrels?

That's correct Gixer1460. I'm using 85mm block and the gallery that feeds the top end was cut into when the cases were machined to accept the larger sleeves. 

Thanks for the replies guys. I see where I went wrong now. Its kind of a blessing I guess. Even if it had just enough oil to not damage itself while running in the bench, with my next step being a dyno session, I'm sure it would have totally destroyed the head then.  All the info I found previously about big blocks and top end Oilers had no mention of running a line from the main gallery. I guess it assumed the cases weren't dry blocked. 

 

I need to order up some 16 x 1.5mm to an-4 fittings and some banjos to run a main line from the bottom main gallery to the top end oiler. 

 

Along those lines, do I run 2 lines from the bottom main galleries? 1 line for each sides' top end oiler?

[TiZiK]

4 minutes ago, no class said:

Probaby over-bored the cases....

Bingo!

[suzook12]

41 minutes ago, TiZiK said:

That's correct Gixer1460. I'm using 85mm block and the gallery that feeds the top end was cut into when the cases were machined to accept the larger sleeves. 

Thanks for the replies guys. I see where I went wrong now. Its kind of a blessing I guess. Even if it had just enough oil to not damage itself while running in the bench, with my next step being a dyno session, I'm sure it would have totally destroyed the head then.  All the info I found previously about big blocks and top end Oilers had no mention of running a line from the main gallery. I guess it assumed the cases weren't dry blocked. 

 

I need to order up some 16 x 1.5mm to an-4 fittings and some banjos to run a main line from the bottom main gallery to the top end oiler. 

 

Along those lines, do I run 2 lines from the bottom main galleries? 1 line for each sides' top end oiler?

I would do both sides, twice the oil up in same amount of time as per Suzuki.... I would make the fittings to have the same bore as the jets originally at the base joint as these help maintain oil pressure at the bottom, and use as small a bore hose as you can to eliminate the reservoir effect

[Gixer1460]

Agree - definitely two lines, each connected into the  'manifold' between the cams - disconnect the line from the cam cover otherwise the good pressurised oil will force itself into the cooling circuit due to the lower pressure. You need the two lines as there is no direct oil connection between the two sides of the head . Whilst restricted oil flow could be achieved with some jets - I personally wouldn't bother as the cam bearing clearances will restrict the flow and keep pressure high up to the point of use - the GSXR oil pump system produces some 50% more pressure / flow than it needs with excess bled off back to the sump, so even with excess oil going up to the head / cams via worn cam bearings the pump will make up the shortfall.

[TiZiK]

Cheers Suzook and say what now!?! 

Just ordered up some lines and will sort this out tonight when I get home. 

[suzook12]

1 hour ago, TiZiK said:

Cheers Suzook and say what now!?! 

Just ordered up some lines and will sort this out tonight when I get home. 

I would be taking a good look at the rockers as well....

 

[TiZiK]

Hahaha... that should have said "Cheers Suzook and gixer1460"

I have spare rockers, rocker shafts and a cam that I'll put in. 

Picked up my oil lines on the way home, didn't realize there isn't a matching oil gallery on the left side. 

Should both lines run off the gallery on the right?

 

Or are one of these in the pics suitable?

I realize that's a brass plug in the one under the starter clutch cover, just wondering if it's high pressure oil behind it?

TIA

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by TiZiK

[Gixer1460]

I've not known anyone go through the brass plug which is just a plug for the bored gallery behind - save the aggro and just double line from the RHS, job done.......... or single line from gallery to a tee piece to equal length hoses up to cam links...... if you are OCD!

[TiZiK]

11 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

I've not known anyone go through the brass plug which is just a plug for the bored gallery behind - save the aggro and just double line from the RHS, job done.......... or single line from gallery to a tee piece to equal length hoses up to cam links...... if you are OCD!

I'm not THAT ocd, but do like things somewhat tidy. 

 

New line in order. Hopefully get around to sorting this out tonight. 

 

Cheers again guys! Appreciate the help. 

[TiZiK]

Big thanks again for the help!

Ordered up 2 Russell lines from the local supplier. One was 36" the other 18". Both use a 10mm straight banjo on both ends. 

I wanted to get in this straight away and didn't want to wait for a fitting for the main gallery, so I drilled and tapped the 8mm Allen original plug to accept a double length banjo bolt. I tightened it down by using a bolt with a nut threaded onto it so I could tighten the plug and hold the nut with a wrench to loosen the bolt. Worked a treat and looks pretty tidy!

Now to replace the cam and rockers and make sure the oil is getting up there.

[TiZiK]

Got her back together with new cams and rockers. Oil pressure is all good now. 

Thanks is again for the help, can't say that enough. You've saved me thousands in $$$ and even more in tears. 

Guess I should get around to getting an update on my build thread so you guys can see what I'm up to. 

For now, she sleeps. Its beer time and Motogp!

[suzook12]

[mikeyd]

Hi TiZiK,  I had the exact same problem as you (dry blocked- top end oiler)  that i chased for a whole season. What i found out is if you pull your valve cover and flip it over you will see weep holes on either side of the casting passages (at least on the 1052 valve cover) YOU have to block these off! It was bleeding all my oil pressure. I just tapped and put screws in the holes - no more problems!  I also purchased the hi pressure oil valves from Dick Speed (the blue topped ones u see on Eblag) Turbo bike making massive power and a lot of boost and still alive.

[TiZiK]

Thanks Mikey! Good to know. A bit late for now tho as I made up a set of new lines and pulled oil from the main gallery on the bottom right side. 

 

May still visit this option down the road to tidy it all up. Engine is getting quite busy looking with braided lines every where from oil feeds and the efi. Lol