Intercooler configurations

[Arttu]

Air-to-water coolers work well when done correctly. Although my experience is mainly from the drag bikes where the water cooling part is mostly skipped and only water tank is used.

On road use cooling the water can be somewhat tricky. On positive side bikes usually run only short periods at full power so there is plenty of time to cool the water between the pulls. So if I were making a road setup I probably wouldn't worry too much about the radiatior size. But instead I would ensure that there is enough water volume to cover full throttle pulls (2-3 liters or more should be fine) and try to avoid engine heat getting into the water. I have run in dyno a couple of road bikes that had only minimal water coolers but additional water tanks instead. And at least in the dyno water was staying pretty cool all the time. So I assume they should work fine on typical road use too. Circuit track or land speed runs could be more challenging cases...

One often overlooked detail is the circulation pump. You need pretty high water flow to get good cooling.

Regarding that 1.0 tsi cooler. Keep in mind that it's designed for about 100hp only. So if you are going to have significantly more power the cooler may not handle that too well. 

[IhmeJanneFIN]

Great response from Arttu once more, thanks a ton.

On my build, which is for the street, the idea is to use as large vertical radiator next to the engine as feasible and good looking to install. Or possibly two, one on either side of the front cylinder, if there is room left on the turbo side. One idea is also to use bigger coolers mounted like on Gurls blouse VFR 1000, but that just looks goofy to my eye, so don't really plan going that way. Also planning to install expansion tank somewhere to up the water volume. Time will tell, when I begin the build, as now it's on the desing stage in my head and plans might change a few times before actual build begins. Have to also google which electric pump would flow well with a small current demand.

My power goal is fairly reasonable at ~200hp (from 120->200 on the bike). The turbo I am considering doesn't flow much more than that. I am not after peak power but rather an early spool for the street. My Frankenstein oil boiler with the same turbo (GT2052) is really good to ride on the street now as it spools already around 3k rpm so basically it feels like there is no turbo lag and no sudden burst of power. Feels like an NA bike but there just is lots more power to use if wanted. Might lose power at the top end if doesn't flow enough, but dyno will tell it in someday in the distant future if I need to use a different turbo on either of the bikes. With SV there will be rather long runners (also unequal lengths) before the turbo so that might effect negatively on the spool. For this reason I was considering supercharging first, but there just isn't room for an Eaton on the bike and Rotrex isn' positive displacement, costs like a liver, one arm and a leg to purchase so turbo it is.

I didn't even consider the cooling capacity of the 1.0 tsi cooling block, that is a good thought Arttu. Will try to google stuff and if I don't find a better suitable heat exchanger I will still try this one.

One thing came to mind that those are run with engine coolant, atleast my Audi 3.0 supercharged runs engine coolant through it's blocks, so people divorce those systems in hunt for better cooling, so the 1.0 tsi block might perform better if coolant temp is considerable lower than engine coolant temp.

If I can't find a better suited charge cooling system for my build (no matter what style) with my googling and planning skills, might just give my plan with the 1.0 tsi cooling block a try and see how it performs. There is a great change it might be done wrong and not perform as expected, but it won't be known if not tested.

[Reinhoud]

On 2/28/2017 at 5:44 PM, MeanBean49 said:

This is my setup. Works really well

Do you know where that intercooler comes from?

[Arttu]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:31 PM, IhmeJanneFIN said:

One thing came to mind that those are run with engine coolant, atleast my Audi 3.0 supercharged runs engine coolant through it's blocks, so people divorce those systems in hunt for better cooling, so the 1.0 tsi block might perform better if coolant temp is considerable lower than engine coolant temp.

Hmm... I haven't ever seen an intercooling system that uses engine coolant. Do you happen to have any references to that Audi solution?

Any ways, I think there are good changes that the 1.0 tsi cooler cell works well enough for 200hp.

One low cost source for cooler cell is some universal air-water intercooler. For example this one should be fine up to 400hp or so:

https://www.turbozentrum.de/Watercooled-intercooler-288x235x90mm-66mm

They are usually pretty easy to cut and weld so you can integrate the cell on your plenum or wherever you prefer to mount it.

One default choice for circulation pump is 1200lph Bosch PCA pump. But that one is relatively big and not exactly cheap. I have used cheapish chinese "DC50" brushless pumps with good results. They are very compact and 1500lph variant has worked fine on +600hp setups. For 200hp you can probably select a lower flow variant to save some current.

 

[IhmeJanneFIN]

35 minutes ago, Arttu said:

Hmm... I haven't ever seen an intercooling system that uses engine coolant. Do you happen to have any references to that Audi solution?

Atleast Audi uses on the 3.0 TFSI engine, the supercharged variant, engine coolant to cool the charge air. There is two cores intagrated to the Eaton itself (TVS R1320) and an extra radiator at the front. It is basically it's "own system" as there is only one small waterhose from expansion tank connecting the engine coolant circuit and the supercharger cooling circuit. Engine side has it's own mechanical waterpump and supercharger side it's own electric waterpump. I think Audi did this so they can get away with only one expansion tank and water adding point. Added parts diagram pic of a S4 with the same engine.

I have myself a 2009 A6 with this engine and can confirm that it uses the same coolant, as I only added water from the expansion tank to whole cooling system while I did the infamous PCV servicing along servicing the Eaton itself. The system itself has 4 bleeding points with brittle plastic bolts and a specific procedure to bleed it correctly.

From what I have read online, the charge air side of the cooling circuit stays actually a bit cooler than the actual engine coolant side, thanks to the only one small pipe connecting the two sides, but people still divorce the system in the hopes of better cooling.

I actually noticed on our company van (2022 VW Transporter with 2.0 TDI) also uses air to water charge cooling, when I checked it's engine this week. Pic included.

Also good info from Arttu about the core what you linked and water pumps. That universal core might actually be able to be fitted as a part of a plenum under SV tank, if the other sides pipe fitting is removed and the rest welded on the plenum itself. Thanks. It's good to hear other peoples thoughts and ideas on this planning stage, so I don't get too fixated on my own plan.

[Gixer1460]

I am guessing that Audi and other OEM's aren't looking for extreme performance gains via the A/W IC's but just to 'take the edge off'. If the turbo is boosting to a couple of bar and its air temps are say 150 deg C then engine water temps of around 90 deg C offers a potential sink for the compressed air temps. Getting compressed air down to ambient is a great goal but most A/A IC's are barely 30-40% efficient so struggle to get a similar high temp down obviously subject to size constraints. My thinking is oil to water oil coolers have been mainstream for a long time so similar performance could be available in air - water IC's?

[Arttu]

7 hours ago, IhmeJanneFIN said:

Atleast Audi uses on the 3.0 TFSI engine, the supercharged variant, engine coolant to cool the charge air. There is two cores intagrated to the Eaton itself (TVS R1320) and an extra radiator at the front. It is basically it's "own system" as there is only one small waterhose from expansion tank connecting the engine coolant circuit and the supercharger cooling circuit. Engine side has it's own mechanical waterpump and supercharger side it's own electric waterpump. I think Audi did this so they can get away with only one expansion tank and water adding point. Added parts diagram pic of a S4 with the same engine.

All right, that makes more sense. So even though the intercooler and engine techically share the same coolant and expansion tank the intercooler has its own radiator and actually separate cooling circuit. So most likely intercooler coolant stays clearly cooler than 80-100°C engine coolant.

[Screwriverracing]

Hi,

the spondon now has a charge cooler fitted.

Cheers SRR