Well enough alone; B12 wheel in GSX swinger, Suc-freakin-cess!

[Zweihammer]

As in, can’t leave.

I think I’m in good company if every time I have to repair or replace something I always feel I need to upgrade.

Blown seal and hard, old, bias tire prompted me to swap out my 83’s whole front for a TL1000s I already had. Even after buying a seal kit and new tires for the original rims. I gave up my speedo, temporarily, but love the new handling and brakes.

Now, I want to have the back rim match with a radial as well. I know a B12 swinger and wheel is a popular swap, but I already have an SV650 wheel and I wanted to keep the ‘83 swinger. I have too many projects as it is. I thought at 4.5 with a 160 it’s gonna slot right in with little pain. Of course, you already know that is not the case. With the bearings all replaced and using the ‘83 spindle and spacers I am, what appears to be, over 25mm off center. 

I know there are many ways to skin this cat, and I have a 5/8ths offset sprocket I can use up front. Is that my best option? How much have people been able to trim the cush drive rubbers or trimmed off the sprocket mounting face from the cush. It looks like I can only take about 3/8” off the drive side spacer before the sprocket studs hit the swinger. I will have to bring the cush in to work to get it done. If someone has already done the deed and would share what they came up with I would be much obliged. I don’t have a problem with the back and forth to work it out myself, I just know it has already been done before.

My other thought is, if the effort is going to be the same, I can get a B12 to put in here and just go right to 5.5 and a 180 straight off. Opinions?

Thanks, Zweihammer 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Zweihammer
Finalize topic

[Fjbj40]

I machined down the cush drive surface for the sprocket when I put the 5.5 bandit wheel in my 1100 swinger in order to centre the wheel. I also made new spacers and had to use an offset front sprocket. It is not going to be a simple bolt in if that is what you are looking for! I run a 170 tire with about 1/4" clearance on each side.

 

Machining is required to make it work.

[Zweihammer]

Thanks, Fjbj40, kinda what I was expecting. Just hoped I could’ve mixed and matched my way closer. I can turn down or trim spacers on my old lathe here. Anything over a couple inches, or that I need accurate, I need to tap others for help.

As many people have been offering spacers, offset sprockets and weld on shock mounts to swap in a B12 swinger, it’s too bad I can’t find a set of spacers and dims to mod the carrier already worked up to slot it in the stock swinger. Small market, I know.

Glad to hear your running with plenty of clearance with the 170. What offset are you running up front, I have a new 520 5/8” I originally picked up for my other project, after seeing examples running 6” 180. I still think I will need it for that, though I try to use what I have and let future me worry about replacing it.

Cheers, Zweihammer 

[Zweihammer]

Well, I now have a B12 with it’s 180 and an SV650 with it’s 160 to choose between and slotting them in the stock 1100 swinger doesn’t look like a problem either way. With the exception of the much smaller disc on the newer rims. I was hoping to be able to keep the stock over hung caliper. Replacing that with a newer under hung caliper and welding on a new torque arm bracket would seem to make swapping out the swinger for a whole B12 unit with welded shock mounts and use it’s B12 brake hanger, etc. almost easier. 

It looks like modifying the caliper hanger to bring the caliper down still won’t line up correctly with the huge old skool GSX caliper interfering with the hub of the rim. I have some other rear calipers for later GSXR and such, smaller, but meant to be under slung, of course.

Any option for a larger disc that would bolt up to B12 rim?  Or a more compact caliper for an over hung application?

Cheers, Zweihammer 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Zweihammer

[Zweihammer]

Well, the more I look, the more it seems I need to quit being a puss and should just get the B12 hanger and caliper and add the torque arm tab to the under side.

Still curious if anyone has done this with an over hung caliper and disc set off something.

[wraith]

B12 disc, gsx750f caliper and hanger all goes on top  (think if I remember you need to drill out spindle hole on hanger) 

Or you could use the b12 hanger with the gsx750f caliper, now need to drill then  also a gsx600f and gs500 (1990 on twin ) caliper will work.

[Zweihammer]

Damn Skippy, that's the ticket. Thanks, Wraith.

Comparing the OD of the disc from the B12/SV650 at 240mm vs the GSX750F/GS500 at 250mm, it seems if I use the GS500 or GSX750F, as is, I will be off the disc by 5mm. Looking at pics of B12 vs GS500 caliper combos, it looks possible to use the B12 hanger with the GS500 caliper and have it all line up with the brake stay on the right side to mount topside. Can't seem to find a measurement online of the caliper mount bolt spacing to confirm.

So, I found a decent, cheap set of both on that site, and bought them. I figure some combination of these parts with some minor mods should give me what I am looking for. Worse comes to worse, I will use the B12 parts and weld a tab on the underside.

Now, I wait, again.

[NorthernBloke]

Let us know what works it’s good to know 

[Zweihammer]

Freaking result! 

I received my mix of parts from that site and proceeded to cobble the GS500 caliper off it’s hanger (spindle bore too small and the hanger to tall by 5mm) and bolt it right to the B12 hanger. With the B12 spacer between the hanger and the hub, it is perfect and has the lug facing forward to keep the caliper topside.

 I will document the exact mix of parts and mods to finish the installation. Right now I have the GSX cush in the B12 wheel as it is shorter. I have a 5/8 offset 520 17t drive sprocket and new chain, having an issue sourcing a 520 sprocket for the GSX cush though. I either need that or get a offset 530 sprocket and use the practically new chain set I put on 1k ago. Right now, my first choice for a new 530 is out of 17t and is offering either a 16t or an 18t. I have been running a 17-47 combo for years. I use this mostly wide open on the highways, I am leaning towards the 18t if I go that way. I could narrow the 530 sprocket off the GSX by machining, but I would rather buy one, all I am finding right now are aluminum and the one time I used an aluminum driven sprocket it lasted about 2k. Anyone have suggestions either way?

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Zweihammer

[Zweihammer]

Welp, after being unsuccessful in finding a 520 sprocket for the B12 that wasn’t aluminum to go with the 520 by 5/8” offset sprocket and chain I already had, I figured I would get a 530 by 5/8”. Most of the B12 swaps I have come across seem to use it.

It was delivered today and I put it in to finalize my spacers. I am using the GSX cush, as it is already shorter than the B12 cush. Since I have a 5/8” offset at the drive, I reasoned positioning the stock GSX cush 5/8” over by shortening the stock spacer would put them inline again. The spacer originally on the outside of the caliper side is the wrong OD for the seal, but was already within a few thou of 5/8” shorter. So for mock up purposes I popped the lip seal out of the GSX cush and slid it all together, with the B12 spacer between the hub and the B12 hanger I am going to use with the GS500 caliper. This maintains the alignment with the caliper and disc. This left a space I was able to slide in two headstock washers I already had , temporarily, to allow me to tighten the spindle down. 

Aligning the spindle front to back and checking the rim flanges to the swingarm puts me very close to center. Laid a straight edge against the rear sprocket and the chain run is straight. 

My issue is, surprise, while the 530 is not touching the frame or tire edge,  it might as well be. I can barely slide a .030” thick steel ruler between the chain rivets and the frame and the tire edge is about the same. I know not all 180 tires are the same width, so I don’t see that as the larger problem. 

My conundrum is the frame. I know for my 6” rim on my other GSX I am going to have to notch my frame. I thought most 5.5” installations didn’t have to using a 5/8” offset 530. If I take material off the cush and the back of the front sprocket it just puts it into the side of the tire.

Am I missing something? Is there narrower 530 brands? The 520 chain I bought for my other GS was the narrowest, according to a search at the time. Here is where I am tonight-

 

[Swirl]

What was the measurement on the inside of the swingarm, where the wheel goes

[wraith]

You could go back to the 520 chain and use the 16t or 18t front sprocket but change the rear sprocket by 3 teeth to compensate and get the same gear as you have, ie if you use the 16t front put a 3 teeth smaller rear on, just need to check that it dose not hit the swing arm pivot, or 18t front with a 3 tooth bigger on the rear, two things with this, one you will need a longer chain two you find the smaller chain may still hit the frame as the bigger sprockets will move the chain up the frame ?

[Dezza]

If the plates and o rings on the 520 are the same width as on the 530, the gap between the chain and tyre will be the same with both chains.

[wraith]

3 hours ago, Dezza said:

If the plates and o rings on the 520 are the same width as on the 530, the gap between the chain and tyre will be the same with both chains.

Not all are, I had a 530 o ring chain on the Kat (can't remember which type) and it just mist/touch (when ridding) the frame, I put a DID x ring 520 chain on and it miss the frame nicely 

As you say you need to size up the chain.

[Zweihammer]

Well, I am not sure why others seem to get by with using a 530 when swapping in the whole B12 swinger and wheel, but my 530 is .98”/25mm wide across the pins and is practically kissing both the frame and tire while straight. 

I bought a 5/8” offset sprocket and DID 520ERV3 X-ring chain back in 2009 when I was looking for the narrowest to put a 6” x 180 in my first project. This chain measures .73”/18.5mm across the pins.

Another 1/4” of clearance? Yes, please!

 

[Zweihammer]

My search for a steel 520 sprocket for the GSX / B12 cush hasn’t been fruitful. I can only seem to find aluminum, which I don’t want. So I felt I had nothing to loose to take my exiting 530 and narrow it. I put it in my sad little JET lathe and as soon as the tool touched the hardened steel the sprocket set up a resonance that I couldn’t stand. I already have tinnitus, I can’t really risk losing what hearing I have left. So I rednecked an alternative and ground it with my angle grinder while spinning down to the 6.1mm width to match my drive sprocket. I finished it up with a flap wheel and it doesn’t look half bad for 30 minutes work. I still want to find one I can buy if anyone knows a source.

[Zweihammer]

I also took this time to remove 5/8” from the stock GSX sprocket side spacer. This put the sprockets in line and provided the proper OD for the stock seal. So far I haven’t trimmed the carrier or cushions.

With the B12 hanger on the brake side, it left a space just under .03” narrower than the stock GS spacer, I was able to spread the arm easily with my fingers to slide it in. 

So far, aside from my insistence on modifying my steel 530 down to 520 width, I have only modified the one GSX spacer from my hodgepodge of purchased parts. I am not trimming the inside of the swingarm braces, at the mo, just using the last half of the take up slots. I have another swingarm I may hack later and swap in, I am just not feeling up to cutting and dressing  aluminum today.

[Zweihammer]

Now I have a relatively comfortable clearance on all sides. 

I have wanted to put nicer shoes on my 83 for years. I know it’s been done a few thousand times before, but you don’t appreciate it until it is done to your own. Damn, it fills her out nicely.

Now, all that remains is to modify the brake stay to the GS500 caliper.

[Swirl]

What model did you start of with, had a quick read through couldn't spot what it is, does it have the same or similar swingarm as a the gsx750es 1985

[Zweihammer]

It is an 83 GS1100E, GSX everywhere else. I am not familiar enough with the 85 GSX750 to speak to the differences. I know they are not the same, with the 750 being a mono vs the duals of the 1100.

I can measure whatever I can of my set, if it would help you.

Cheers, Zweihammer 

[Swirl]

3 minutes ago, Zweihammer said:

It is an 83 GS1100E, GSX everywhere else. I am not familiar enough with the 85 GSX750 to speak to the differences. I know they are not the same, with the 750 being a mono vs the duals of the 1100.

I can measure whatever I can of my set, if it would help you.

Cheers, Zweihammer 

I need to stop being lazy and pull the wheel out and see if i can make it fit 

[Zweihammer]

15 minutes ago, Swirl said:

I need to stop being lazy and pull the wheel out and see if i can make it fit 

The only sure thing I can suggest, if you are not already, is running a 520. Makes life easier. 

You requested I measure between the inside of the wheel surfaces on the swingarm. I will check that later today off one I have loose on the shelf.

Cheers, Zweihammer 

[Swirl]

34 minutes ago, Zweihammer said:

The only sure thing I can suggest, if you are not already, is running a 520. Makes life easier. 

You requested I measure between the inside of the wheel surfaces on the swingarm. I will check that later today off one I have loose on the shelf.

Cheers, Zweihammer 

Thanks

[Zweihammer]

Today’s task was the final issue of the brake stay. I started with a cut-n-shut, which I knew wouldn’t make me happy, but would at least help me work out the geometry. Sure enough, it looked like shite and was about an inch short due to my first cut being too far from the caliper. I pondered extending it the missing inch with some material in my shop. At a nominal 7/8” OD, the first thing that came to mind was one of my cast off handlebars. I keep what I consider useful raw material around and I have used the mandrel bends from handlebars and heavy duty office furniture to make some pretty nice projects over the years.

 I had gotten some superbike bend handlebars, to replace the chrome whatever was on this bike, before I ultimately kept the clip ons that came with the TL forks. The chrome bar’s bends actually fit right in the application better than my cut-n-shut, wound around the wheel and shock and followed the angle of the swingarm. Knowing a good thing when I see one, I chopped the clevises off the bar and welded them to the trimmed down right half of the bar. A lick of black and it’ll look like it always was here.

 The last picture is the inside of the swingarm and the brace that would have to be trimmed back to move the wheel further forward and use the whole take up slot. As of now, I am content with the last half.

To summarize, as was stated before, this project will require some machining and some welding. My shopping list, if you are starting with a complete GSX1000, would be;

Bandit 1200 wheel w/o cush drive 

Bandit 1200 brake hanger

GS500 caliper and hose

5/8 offset 520 front sprocket

520 chain

520 conversion rear sprocket for B12 or GS1100 (would fit either)

I don’t know if I would buy a low rise handlebar to help make the brake stay, but it worked for me.

Now, I am waiting to get my new-old rotor from across the pond to replace my comprised magneto before I can ride.

Hell yeah. 

 

[Zweihammer]

Swirl, it looks like 10 3/8th inch inside, face to face.

Cheers, Zweihammer