Big Block Rocker Feed

[Duckndive]

Question For those running a big block GSXR ..

I notice after pulling the top end of mine with the o ring's over the H/D studs the rocker feed will be virtually non existent 

So where are you taking it from ? 

[clivegto]

On the 1340m motor I recently acquired the studs have been grooved to allow better oil flow presumably, I don't like this idea. My turbo motors have heavy duty studs with steel cometic head gasket and O rings fitted, haven't had any issues. 

[Duckndive]

8 minutes ago, clivegto said:

 My turbo motors have heavy duty studs with steel cometic head gasket and O rings fitted, haven't had any issues. 

Are you using the Genuine Suzuki O-Rings ? 

[clivegto]

4 hours ago, Duckndive said:

Are you using the Genuine Suzuki O-Rings ? 

Yes 

[Duckndive]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:40 PM, clivegto said:

 My turbo motors have heavy duty studs with steel cometic head gasket and O rings fitted, haven't had any issues. 

I,ve decided i'm going to spin the oil pump with a drill with the cam cover off when i get it back together to see what happens prior to fitting the frame 

[Gixer1460]

2 minutes ago, Duckndive said:

I,ve decided i'm going to spin the oil pump with a drill with the cam cover off when i get it back together to see what happens prior to fitting the frame 

Why ? Do you suspect a problem? Many thousands of bikes, road and track have used HD stud kits without under oiling the top ends. Don't forget, without the cam cover you'll get many litres of un-restrained cooling oil squirting every which way!

[Duckndive]

2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Why ? Do you suspect a problem? Many thousands of bikes, road and track have used HD stud kits without under oiling the top ends. Don't forget, without the cam cover you'll get many litres of un-restrained cooling oil squirting every which way!

no just when i stripped the head off the o-rings were very tight on the H/D studs and big block so looked as if there was no oil route ..

the rockers had a feed from the cam cover but thats marginal anyway as that gallery has an open hole in it anyway .

its simple to block the feed to the cam cover for trial purposes and i was going to turn the pump slowly to start with....

curiosity and all that 

[kiwi]

3 hours ago, Duckndive said:

I,ve decided i'm going to spin the oil pump with a drill with the cam cover off when i get it back together to see what happens prior to fitting the frame 

Clive No Video never happened 

[McLean Racing]

If you are going to fit the cam to cam style feeds, only ever take the main feed from the main oil gallery at the bottom of the motor. If you take it from the rocker cover you will have reduced oil pressure at the head as that feed is for the cooling system side of the pump.

[Buzuki]

I would never connect those two separate oil circuits together,
1) for the simple reason that the engine head cooling oil circuit uses unfiltered oil , so that any dirt present in the oil can easily reach the rotating surfaces of the camshafts and can damage them significantly,
2) the oil pressures in those two separate systems are completely different, so any interaction between them can lead to problems, mainly problems with effective and good lubrication of the entire camshafts assembly,
3) if you want to achieve better and more efficient lubrication of the entire camshafts assembly, then the only way is to slightly widen the original left and right oil nozzles located in the engine block, since internal hole diameter of this two oil nozzles directly determine distributed filetred lubrication oil volume to entire camshafts assembly .

[Duckndive]

24 minutes ago, Buzuki said:

I would never connect those two separate oil circuits together,
1) for the simple reason that the engine head cooling oil circuit uses unfiltered oil , so that any dirt present in the oil can easily reach the rotating surfaces of the camshafts and can damage them significantly,
2) the oil pressures in those two separate systems are completely different, so any interaction between them can lead to problems, mainly problems with effective and good lubrication of the entire camshafts assembly,
3) if you want to achieve better and more efficient lubrication of the entire camshafts assembly, then the only way is to slightly widen the original left and right oil nozzles located in the engine block, since internal hole diameter of this two oil nozzles directly determine distributed filetred lubrication oil volume to entire camshafts assembly .

I never said I was going to did I ? 

You may want to read my original post 

Edited February 27 by Duckndive

[clivegto]

When I thought about it when building the oil feed up for up the studs all squirts through that tiny little jets at the bottom anyway. 

[Duckndive]

10 hours ago, Buzuki said:

I would never connect those two separate oil circuits together,
1) for the simple reason that the engine head cooling oil circuit uses unfiltered oil , so that any dirt present in the oil can easily reach the rotating surfaces of the camshafts and can damage them significantly,

Just read that again on PC 

Where does the "unfiltered oil"   come from then  and how does it remain that way  

 

[Gixer1460]

56 minutes ago, Duckndive said:

Just read that again on PC 

Where does the "unfiltered oil"   come from then  and how does it remain that way  

Unfortunately Clive, on this occasion he's right! See attached Cooling Oil Circuits diagram from the workshop manual. Cooling oil doesn't get filtered - bizarre I know but thats the way Suzuki designed it!

[Duckndive]

Yes i,ve seen the oil diagram but at the end of the day it will mix with oil from the rocker feeds in the head and returns to the sump with that oil via the cam chain tunnel and front drains 

so at some point it must get to the filter ... ! 

 

Edited February 28 by Duckndive

[Gixer1460]

Yes, but the point is the filtered oil is delivered, at pressure, to the bearings whilst the un-filtered oil merely 'sloshes' around the head then drains back to the sump. I have no axe to grind, one way or the other and I do have my cooling circuit connected to the cam feed circuit without issues so far, but I've yet to see empirical evidence of cam bearing failure due - solely - to this combination, but I guess it is possible. Even if the bearing HP feed pressure was 'diluted down' to cooling circuit pressure (30+psi at a guess but with greater volume) that is still more than adequate to prevent metal 2 metal contact - Aircooled GSX's survive at considerably lower pressures for cosmic mileages! 

It is a good reason to keep on top of oil and filter changes though! 

[Duckndive]

Agreed Ian 

But there is only "Truly Unfiltered Oil" the 1st time you start it after an oil change for about 10 seconds after that it's a free for oil "pun intended" 

My Initial concern was from what i seen when i pulled the head of "Should have took a pic" where the o rings were very tight on the studs and forced into the stud holes in the big block which made me think 

I have since put it back together with new o-rings and MLS gasket "the new suzuki 0-rings were not overly tight on the studs so i am less concerned now...

 

[Buzuki]

10 hours ago, Duckndive said:

Just read that again on PC 

Where does the "unfiltered oil"   come from then  and how does it remain that way  

 

Unfiltered oil use the smaller oil pump , which basically sucks the oil from oil pan which is further distributed via two hoses up to the  cylinder head cover , and further to 8 big oil jets which splash and cools thermally very loaded points on aluminium cyl.head , finally that but now heated oil falls down in the oil pan via on the engine front placed two big oil metal pipes and two stud bolts , that`s how oil head cooling circulation loop is done , btw, those from the front two oil metal big pipes have also the function as some sort of minor oil cooler , since majority from the cyl.head returning heated oil pass through them , it is important to notice that cyl.head oil cooling loop have almost no any oil presure but have very high rate of oil flow, if I remember correctly for very early slabby 750R engine that`s about 52L/min. at full engine load and at max. RPM , without this oil cooling system aluminium cyl.head will be melt down very quickly ,

as for engine lubrication system there`s another bigger one oil pump which sucks the same unfiltered oil from the same oil pan , but now under pressure the oil goes to the Oil Filter patrone and further filtered then all the way to the camshaft assembly as drawn in this sketch ... just follow the green arrows ...

IMHO it is not good to mix those two functionally different oil circuits anywhere , since lubrication oil circuit is under pressure and uses filtered oil , on the other side is the cyl.head cooling oil circuit which work with very low oil presure and uses Unfiltered oil .

Edited February 28 by Buzuki

[Duckndive]

46 minutes ago, Buzuki said:

Unfiltered oil use the smaller oil pump , which basically sucks the oil from oil pan which is further distributed via two hoses up to the  cylinder head cover , and further to 8 big oil jets which splash and cools thermally very loaded points on aluminium cyl.head , finally that but now heated oil falls down in the oil pan via on the engine front placed two big oil metal pipes and two stud bolts , that`s how oil head cooling circulation loop is done , btw, those from the front two oil metal big pipes have also the function as some sort of minor oil cooler , since majority from the cyl.head returning heated oil pass through them , it is important to notice that cyl.head oil cooling loop have almost no any oil presure but have very high rate of oil flow, if I remember correctly for very early slabby 750R engine that`s about 52L/min. at full engine load and at max. RPM , without this oil cooling system aluminium cyl.head will be melt down very quickly ,

as for engine lubrication system there`s another bigger one oil pump which sucks the same unfiltered oil from the same oil pan , but now under pressure the oil goes to the Oil Filter patrone and further filtered then all the way to the camshaft assembly as drawn in this sketch ... just follow the green arrows ...

IMHO it is not good to mix those two functionally different oil circuits anywhere , since lubrication oil circuit is under pressure and uses filtered oil , on the other side is the cyl.head cooling oil circuit which work with very low oil presure and uses Unfiltered oil .

BUT ALL THE OIL COMES FROM AND RETURNS TO THE SAME PLACE 

SO THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNFILTERED OIL 

THERE IS ONLY LOW PRESSURE AND HIGH PRESSURE OIL 

[Buzuki]

No ,bigger oil pump for high pressure engine lubrication loop directs oil flow through the Oil Filter Patrone , and that`s the Filtered oil ,

but second smaller oil pump for low pressure cyl.head cooling loop do not directs oil flow through the Oil Filter Patrone to be filtered ,

and that`s the whole difference .

ps, of course that both oil pumps takes the same unfiltered oil from the same oil pan.

Edited February 28 by Buzuki

[clivegto]

Only 1 oil pump in all the gsxr and B12 motors I've had in bits. 

[Duckndive]

1 hour ago, clivegto said:

Only 1 oil pump in all the gsxr and B12 motors I've had in bits. 

One pump Two sections