550/650 Swap

[109Countries]

1 hour ago, Reinhoud said:

Haven't read much...

 

A digital gauge is NOT!!!! more acurate than a gauge with a dial.. That's all the information I can give you...  

 

Acuracy can mean 2 things, 0.1mm is 0.1mm, or you do a measurement 10 times, and 10 times you get (almost) the same reading.

I wanted a cleaner look on the instrument cluster, while keeping the warning lights and hopefully the gear indicator. A tach would be an awesome thing to have. I just don’t think I can do this with an analog. 

[Poldark]

You seem a little confused.  Maybe I can clear this up.  Do NOT use the GS650GL cam sprockets (engine will destroy itself), but you could use those camshafts IF you change the sprockets (engine will run, but you can have better performance).  If you have the GS650E cams and sprockets; they should be your best option.  GS550 cams and sprockets have been known to work well with the 650 conversion.

700 or 740.  Think of having close to a 750 in the size and weight of 550.  Worth it?  Depends on how much time and money you have budgeted.  Not just the cost of the pistons, but paying a machine shop to bore and hone four holes.  If your cylinder bores are pitted or worn out, you might as well go ahead and do it.  I think the 740 requires non-stock head gasket.

If you do the 650 conversion, and don't get carried away with "race" stuff, you should end up with a fun and affordable street bike.  

[109Countries]

2 hours ago, Poldark said:

You seem a little confused.  Maybe I can clear this up.  Do NOT use the GS650GL cam sprockets (engine will destroy itself), but you could use those camshafts IF you change the sprockets (engine will run, but you can have better performance).  If you have the GS650E cams and sprockets; they should be your best option.  GS550 cams and sprockets have been known to work well with the 650 conversion.

700 or 740.  Think of having close to a 750 in the size and weight of 550.  Worth it?  Depends on how much time and money you have budgeted.  Not just the cost of the pistons, but paying a machine shop to bore and hone four holes.  If your cylinder bores are pitted or worn out, you might as well go ahead and do it.  I think the 740 requires non-stock head gasket.

If you do the 650 conversion, and don't get carried away with "race" stuff, you should end up with a fun and affordable street bike.  

Thank you for the clarification. I read that the GS650GL cams were the 34T sprockets, so I went on Eblag and found a set of the GS650E cams and sprockets for $25. I counted the teeth in the picture and it was a 30T, which is the same as the 550 cams and sprockets. As I had said, I was hoping to go with the most performance based application. I had read that the 650 powerband is pretty high, where as the 550 is more even across the powerband. As you had said, I want a fun and affordable street bike that I built. I have built a VN750 and a VN700 (sold), but that was mostly modifying the timing and air intake. I was wanting to do a full build. I believe that the 650 has the same power as the 750, but in a smaller frame. I would like to stay away from getting anything professionally done, as I promised the wife that I wouldn't have 4 bikes, so I will have to get rid of 2 of them at SOME point (didn't promise when!!)

To that end, I want to put on some slip ons, some pods, electronic points (to advance timing), and the 650 top end swap. From there, I will get rid of the fenders, and hopefully swap the lower control arm out with an aluminum one (if found cheap enough) to cut weight. I have put progressive springs in the Road King Classic and the VN750; they are WONDERFUL. So probably those as well. Of course new tires, brake pads, seat with a cowl and I want to try and dent the tank myself. Worse case scenario, I will just buy one for $100. I can't think of any other weight savings.

I cannot figure out how to delete the last post. Sorry fellas

Edited October 15, 2020 by 109Countries

[Reinhoud]

5 hours ago, 109Countries said:

I wanted a cleaner look on the instrument cluster, while keeping the warning lights and hopefully the gear indicator. A tach would be an awesome thing to have. I just don’t think I can do this with an analog. 

Oops, I didn't realise you meant that... I thought in tools, verniers and stuff..

My bad..

[Poldark]

15 hours ago, 109Countries said:

I had read that the 650 powerband is pretty high, where as the 550 is more even across the powerband. As you had said, I want a fun and affordable street bike that I built.

That sounds about right.  The shaft drive 650's were touring oriented so performance was focused on low and mid range torque, and smooth running.  You bought a set of GS650E cams and sprockets for a reasonable price; they should give the best results.

You own and ride H-D's, that's the prime example of low end torque.  A fun experiment would be to drag race the Sportster and the GS550/650.  I'd predict the Sportster to initially jump out ahead but then your 550/650 pass it and win.

I'm starting work on a VN750, but we don't discuss that here.

[109Countries]

6 minutes ago, Poldark said:

That sounds about right.  The shaft drive 650's were touring oriented so performance was focused on low and mid range torque, and smooth running.  You bought a set of GS650E cams and sprockets for a reasonable price; they should give the best results.

You own and ride H-D's, that's the prime example of low end torque.  A fun experiment would be to drag race the Sportster and the GS550/650.  I'd predict the Sportster to initially jump out ahead but then your 550/650 pass it and win.

I'm starting work on a VN750, but we don't discuss that here.

So I am curious as to why you say that the 650e cams and sprockets would be the best route to go, when the 550 is across the board and the 650e is high end? Just wondering from your perspective. I think that would be a good experiment to try, once both are built. A 1200 versus the 673. My money is on the Suzuki hahahaha.

One last thing, while I still have some money for the small parts (waiting to bite the bullet on the exhausts, filters, and tires) is there ANYTHING else that I should look at when I have both engines on the bench? Any known weak points?

Any questions with the VN750, feel free to PM me. I got rather versed in the fine intricacies of it. It is a blast to ride.

[Gixer1460]

40 minutes ago, 109Countries said:

So I am curious as to why you say that the 650e cams and sprockets would be the best route to go, when the 550 is across the board and the 650e is high end?

I think you've got it arse about face! The 550 may have similar power as a 650 but it lacks torque and makes up for that with rev's - its a peakier engine. The 650 - as a shafty based engine - was designed to make torque and its power output is better spread across the rev range meaning you don't have to continually stir the gear shift - just click into top and 'roll the throttle' Usually in any torque comparison - cubes wins!

[109Countries]

30 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

I think you've got it arse about face! The 550 may have similar power as a 650 but it lacks torque and makes up for that with rev's - its a peakier engine. The 650 - as a shafty based engine - was designed to make torque and its power output is better spread across the rev range meaning you don't have to continually stir the gear shift - just click into top and 'roll the throttle' Usually in any torque comparison - cubes wins!

Hahahaha arse about face... that is hilarious. I have never heard that before. I take it that that is the equivalent to ass-backwards. I really do not care how high the engine revs. It would also be nice to not have to take it to the peak RPMS to get the power, so I understand the 650 cams being across the board due to the nature of being shaft driven. So besides the cams of the GL not working due to the teeth, since that is a shaft driven opposed to the e, would that be more torque based? I could not find any 650m cam shafts. I also read that the e and the m had the same engine set up. Is that true?

[Poldark]

46 minutes ago, 109Countries said:

So I am curious as to why you say that the 650e cams and sprockets would be the best route to go, when the 550 is across the board and the 650e is high end? Just wondering from your perspective

This is about the type of bike I think you are trying to build and how you will likely ride it.  Aggressive solo riding.  Long interstate highway cruising with luggage and a passenger is what your RoadKing is made for.  Notice the word "racer" in "cafe racer"?  I assume you will be aggressive on the throttle.  The high-end cam is best suited to those condition.  The Chevy small block V8 has long been a popular hotrod/ muscle-car engine in America, so I will use it for my analogy.  The GS650E has the hotrod/muscle-car 350.  The GS650G is the 350 in a truck. The GS550 is a 305 in a regular passenger car.  You have a passenger car you want to build into a hotrod.  You're going to pull the 305 out, and upgrade to a 350 that came from a truck.  Do you want your car to run like a truck, a passenger car with a slightly larger engine, or a hotrod?

For our friends outside North America: 305 and 350 refers to cubic inch displacement.  5.0L  5.7L

47 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

I think you've got it arse about face! The 550 may have similar power as a 650 but it lacks torque and makes up for that with rev's - its a peakier engine. The 650 - as a shafty based engine - was designed to make torque and its power output is better spread across the rev range meaning you don't have to continually stir the gear shift - just click into top and 'roll the throttle' Usually in any torque comparison - cubes wins!

The GS650G and GS650GL were shaft driven models.  The GS650E  was a performance based chain drive model available in American market in 1981 and 1982.  The E model uses the same engine mount points as the 550 but it is a 5 speed not 6.  

[109Countries]

1 hour ago, Poldark said:

This is about the type of bike I think you are trying to build and how you will likely ride it.  Aggressive solo riding.  Long interstate highway cruising with luggage and a passenger is what your RoadKing is made for.  Notice the word "racer" in "cafe racer"?  I assume you will be aggressive on the throttle.  The high-end cam is best suited to those condition.  The Chevy small block V8 has long been a popular hotrod/ muscle-car engine in America, so I will use it for my analogy.  The GS650E has the hotrod/muscle-car 350.  The GS650G is the 350 in a truck. The GS550 is a 305 in a regular passenger car.  You have a passenger car you want to build into a hotrod.  You're going to pull the 305 out, and upgrade to a 350 that came from a truck.  Do you want your car to run like a truck, a passenger car with a slightly larger engine, or a hotrod?

For our friends outside North America: 305 and 350 refers to cubic inch displacement.  5.0L  5.7L

The GS650G and GS650GL were shaft driven models.  The GS650E  was a performance based chain drive model available in American market in 1981 and 1982.  The E model uses the same engine mount points as the 550 but it is a 5 speed not 6.  

Okay, we are 100% on the same page. Yes, aggressive solo riding is what I want the suzuki for. The wife demands the softest of air ride suspension when she is with me! That was a spot on analogy. Thanks again bud! 

So to re-ask, while I am in there, what are the known trouble spots on these? Should I just go ahead and replace the R/R and stator while I've got the engine split? I was going to take the internals to the brass wheel and clean up any carbon, but if re-timing is necessary then I will just leave it be. Again, if the points and advancing the timing doesn't do anything, then I will just go with the stock set of points and time it off of the 650e setting. Also, put the 650e stock jets in. Should I go 1 size larger if I plan on putting exhaust and pods on? What about shimming the carb? 

[Gixer1460]

2 hours ago, 109Countries said:

Hahahaha arse about face... that is hilarious. I have never heard that before. I take it that that is the equivalent to ass-backwards.

So besides the cams of the GL not working due to the teeth,

We have a similar variation - Back Arsewards!

Stop getting hung up on the 650 cams 'not working' due to the cam wheels . . . . . you unbolt the 650 wheels and fit the 550 wheels that match the 550 crank gear - Job Done!

Apologies for the 650 confusion - we only got the 650 Shafty as a Katana of all things, but I can't see Suzuki re-engineering a whole separate engine just for a chain drive variant - can you? 

Either way both the 550 and the 650 are unlikely to set the world alight with their stunning performance! - for probably the same coin spent, just buy a GSXR 750 and throw that in the frame, add an oil cooler and instant REAL performance hike with solid reliability!

[Poldark]

Not much in the way of mechanical trouble spots with these engines.  Weak point was electrical, but that can be done with the engine in the frame but slightly easier with the engine out.  To get the most out of your modification without adding extra expense, do the mild port and valve lapping like Wraith suggested.  Good time to check and correct valve clearance, although it can be done after engine is installed.

I'm not a carb turning expert.  In my experience, factory jetting is one size too lean.  If you are going to run aftermarket intake and exhaust, you need to go up a size.  So, in all at least two sizes larger.  

You can't go wrong with a Dyna S ignition system on a GS engine.  A stock electronic ignition is fine too.  I like old style breaker point ignition for its simplicity, but it lacks high rpm performance.

[wraith]

2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

 

Apologies for the 650 confusion - we only got the 650 Shafty as a Katana of all things, but I can't see Suzuki re-engineering a whole separate engine just for a chain drive variant - can you? 

 

Err gsx1100g (1127cc) gsx1100f (1127cc) gsxr1100 (1127cc) all the same but very different 

[Poldark]

30 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

We have a similar variation - Back Arsewards!

Stop getting hung up on the 650 cams 'not working' due to the cam wheels . . . . . you unbolt the 650 wheels and fit the 550 wheels that match the 550 crank gear - Job Done!

Apologies for the 650 confusion - we only got the 650 Shafty as a Katana of all things, but I can't see Suzuki re-engineering a whole separate engine just for a chain drive variant - can you? 

Either way both the 550 and the 650 are unlikely to set the world alight with their stunning performance! - for probably the same coin spent, just buy a GSXR 750 and throw that in the frame, add an oil cooler and instant REAL performance hike with solid reliability!

The shaft drive and chain drive 650 engines had lots of engineering differences.  Different cases (chain drive used same case as 550 engine).  The chain drive engines had full roller bearing crankshafts, the shaft drive models have plain split-shell bearings.  There are a few other differences.  Different cam profiles is not far fetched, as our shaft drive model was touring oriented.  The cams would initially be forged the same, then ground to different profiles.  He already purchased camshafts with sprockets from a chain drive 650, so why not use them.

No one is trying to set the world alight with the 550/650 engine combo.  An oil cooled 600 would also be a six speed with comparable performance; not to mention they are widely available at low cost.  Look a bit harder and spend a bit more and you can have an oil cooled 750 with "REAL" performance.  With the extra power of the 750, you may want to upgrade the wheels-tires, suspension, and brakes.  Some on OSS go that route and end up with a cool custom bike.  If performance is really the driving issue, just buy a used GSXR750 and get it into good working order.  Others may prefer the looks of an older bike with an air cooled engine.  Some may be more comfortable with engine work than fabrication work.

Thread is titled "550/650 Swap".  If that doesn't interest you, why are you wasting your time on this thread?  Spend that time prepping your GSXR1460 for the next race.

[Gixer1460]

8 hours ago, Poldark said:

Thread is titled "550/650 Swap".  If that doesn't interest you, why are you wasting your time on this thread?  Spend that time prepping your GSXR1460 for the next race.

Maybe cos i've got nothing but time to waste! I'm intrigued with the 650 chain drive engine and why it exists - can't believe the performance hole between a GS550 and a GS750 demanded it ? Wasn't there a GS700 as well? A lot of these models were only seemingly available in the U.S. - wonder why?

And for the record i've never advised NOT to use the 650 cams - I was trying to correct the OP's belief that they weren't usable due to the tooth count on the wheels. It sounds like the 650 engine is more akin to the 4v 750 (what we call a GSX) if using shell bearings - obviously a different crank with different tooth count as well.

Also the 1460 isn't a race bike - road bike only! I done my racing and stopped years ago.

[wraith]

Ok the man is in the US if the 650 chain drive can be got over there, why piss about swapping top ends just put the hole 650 engine in?

 

Also, yes there was a gs700 and a gs500 (not the twin ) there was also a gs750 shaft drive, think it was because if emissions?

[Poldark]

2 hours ago, Gixer1460 said:

Maybe cos i've got nothing but time to waste! I'm intrigued with the 650 chain drive engine and why it exists - can't believe the performance hole between a GS550 and a GS750 demanded it ? Wasn't there a GS700 as well? A lot of these models were only seemingly available in the U.S. - wonder why?

And for the record i've never advised NOT to use the 650 cams - I was trying to correct the OP's belief that they weren't usable due to the tooth count on the wheels. It sounds like the 650 engine is more akin to the 4v 750 (what we call a GSX) if using shell bearings - obviously a different crank with different tooth count as well.

Also the 1460 isn't a race bike - road bike only! I done my racing and stopped years ago.

say what now!?, I'm sorry about coming off like that.  I mistook you as having an elitist attitude; I thought you were questioning his project choice as a wasted effort because it wasn't up to your standards.

For short rides, I really like the gs550, but it is somewhat lacking in power.  The GS650E (chain drive) was about the size and weight of the 550 with performance approaching the 750.  Another issue was keeping up with the competition.  For example, H--da had good sales with the CB650, why loose a market segment to another maker?  There were very few unique components in the GS650E.  Most of the major forgings and casting were shared with other models; so not that difficult from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint.  

Suzuki and others offered 700's during the mid eighties.  At one time H-D was the last remaining American motorcycle manufacturer.  They nearly went out of business but they had new designs ready for production.  The US government placed a three year ('84-'86) import tariff on imported motorcycles 700cc and larger in order to give H-D an advantage (they came back very strong mostly due to aggressive marketing and image).  The imported brands responded by a slight reduction in bore size on their 750's; thus the number of various 700 models (699cc).   A few got models got around this by using US based assembly plants.  [ I have a US made '86 VN750]  When Suzuki came out with the GSXR750, they decided to leave it as a 750 and the tariff would just be factored into the cost.

2 hours ago, wraith said:

Ok the man is in the US if the 650 chain drive can be got over there, why piss about swapping top ends just put the hole 650 engine in?

 

Also, yes there was a gs700 and a gs500 (not the twin ) there was also a gs750 shaft drive, think it was because if emissions?

    My first Suzuki was a GS550 with a complete chain drive 650 swapped in; it worked great.  One down side is loosing the six speed transmission.  The larger issue is availability; the GS650E was only made for two years ('81-'82).  If the engine is still in the bike, no advantage to swap it over unless there is frame damage or title issues.  Many more used 550's and shaft drive 650's to be found.  Shaft drive GS's are not as popular as vintage bikes as when they were new.  Thus pulling top end off a shaft drive 650 and installing on a 550.

[Captain Chaos]

44 minutes ago, Poldark said:

When Suzuki came out with the GSXR750, they decided to leave it as a 750 and the tariff would just be factored into the cost.

They just decided not to sell it in the  USA during the first model year. 

[Poldark]

9 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

They just decided not to sell it in the  USA during the first model year. 

I was in elementary school when that was going on, but an article I read about the GXSR development is what I based that statement on.  It was 1985, right?  Maybe we didn't get it that year, but then it then but then it was released here in '86 during the last year of the tariff?  I think we didn't get the first year water-cooled GSXR.  We did get a whole bunch of chug-chug-chug H-D's is different configurations.