Turbo plumbing for a simpleton

[El Gringo]

Afternoon All

Haven't been around on here much recently but i'm loving the fact it's all back up and spinning again!

I've been doing a bit of research into the in's and out's of turbos and i'm struggling to get my head round where the various pipes should go and where to take feeds from etc.

I've had the old turbo layout picture from the old site saved for ages which i've modified to what i think it should be, just wondered if one of you guys could sense check it for me please?

I'm aiming for a very basic blow through setup (ignore the intercooler bit)

Any pointers would be much appreciated

Cheers

Chris

[Gixer1460]

Pretty much correct - only vacuum from carbs to FPR should be to plenum as the carbs don't require reduced fuel pressure on over-run - just static pressure + boost pressure.

[El Gringo]

Thanks Mr 1460

So that's the FPR seeing a boost signal from the plenum rather than a vacuum from the carbs? Which makes far more sense than how i've got it there!

I've also got a couple of compressor maps with some points hand plotted, i think i know which is the better one but could I be cheeky and ask someone to cast an eye over them please?

It's abit of a left field bike choice - GSXR400 and i'm aiming for approx 100bhp

I knows it's probably a pointless endeavour but i fancy a go at it and it was cheap

Options as far as i can see are a GT1241, which i think is the better option with more room for further power, or an RHB31 VZ21 which I think is a bit small

 

Cheers Again

Chris

Edited February 4, 2016 by El Gringo
Photobucket being crap

[Captain Chaos]

3 hours ago, El Gringo said:

 GSXR400 and i'm aiming for approx 100bhp

this sounds mighty insane.

I love it, carry on.

[Gixer1460]

You may find a GT1544 or 48 more suited as a 12 could be on the limit which means inlet heat - not good in a carb application IMO!

[El Gringo]

Many Thanks again Mr1460!

Just so i understand, when you say on the limit, could you expand a little please?

As in it'll potentially run out of puff at the 11,000rpm, so effectively spinning generating heat but not giving anymore power.

Apologies for all the questions and thank you very much for your help!

[Gixer1460]

As in, it will be towards the top end of its (the turbo's) performance envelope where efficiency starts dropping off and so inlet charge heat increases due to increasing the relative boost to maintain the airflow. Most turbo installations never rev out like their N/A cousins - mine had a 10,500 hp peak as N/A but as a turbo, makes its peak at between 8,500 and 9,000 - they are fuckin' torque monsters. If that ickle 400 works ....... it'll feel like a well tuned 600 or average 750 at a guess! - and it won't rev itself to bits either!

[El Gringo]

Fantastic!, I like the sound of that!

Thanks again for your help, i'll plot a 1544 map and see what it looks like.

Cost wise the 1241 and 1544 are broadly similar although there appear to be a few more 1544's knocking about

 

[Sheep]

I like a man willing to try something different...hats off to you my good man

I own a big turbo car but i am 'new' if you like when it comes to turbo bikes but i was wondering,looking at the diagram why you choose an internal wastegate turbo and not an external type.I would have thought an external types dimensions would have been better suited to bikes seeing as the turbo outlet is,more often than not,smaller....but i love to learn new things and everyday is a school day as they say.

[Gixer1460]

Personally i've built two turbo bikes, one suck through, one blow through, one 210hp the other 370hp and both with internal gates but have been around numerous others as well. I see the benefits of external gates but i'd say they are of more benefit on really big output motors that need the ultimate in tight power control, ie. racing. An internal gate can be ported to flow better and more consistently but they are definitely the 'poor' relation - mind you I've seen some rubbish external gate installs / positioning, so it has to be considered as well.

[Sheep]

Oh ok cool...i run an external Turbosmart with my big Garret.The exhaust housing is perfectly round for the downpipe,good for flow.I did not know you could port an internal type,but thinking of it it does make sense.When i built my (car) manifold i was told by my mapper wastegate position is very important to allow it to perform correctly and avoid boost spike.A second manifold proved this.

Im still amazed at how compact some bike systems are....good luck and cant wait to see some pics

[El Gringo]

To be honest i'm trying to minimise costs initially as it only an experiment first time round.

If it works, and i see no reason why it shouldn't, i'll expand in version 2.0

I've plotted a 1544 map up to 20PSI and it does give a bit more head room at 11,000 rpm, plus the flanges are a bit bigger which may make package the header a bit easier.

I've just gathering the parts for an initial rolling chassis build, so the turbo bit will be a while on yet

[El Gringo]

Hi All

Made a bit of progess on this, rolling chassis is pretty much complete, now starting to think about the turbo bits.

Couple of questions.

On the GSXR4 theres a sandwich plate oil cooler behind the filter, this pushes the filter out infront on the frame cross member below the exhaust ports - i get the feeling that it means the filter is going to be right in the way of the turbo - I realise that Turbo bikes are hard on oil and oil temps but could i do away with it and just run the filter on the front of the block, like an oil cooled lump? I've searched for a shorter oil filter but can't find one.

Secondly, the only point to pull an oil feed for the turbo is the threaded fitting the oil pressure switch is fitted to on the front of the sump. My plan is to replace the threaded boss with and banjo and banjo bolt thats threaded to take the pressure switch - this way the switch still sees pressure but allows me to run a line to the turbo. 

Thirdly, on the turbo oil feed, what size line would be appropriate? Having looked at some of the other threads i think this will need a restrictor, which i was thinking could go in the banjo bolt after the pressure switch.

Any pointers greatfully appreciated

This is how far i've got

Oil filter/cooler and feed point for the turbo?

Cheers

Chris

 

[El Gringo]

Bit more progress, none turbo related i'm afraid

Still looking at the pipework sizes, got the air and exhaust side of it sorted but i'm still wondering about the oil feed and drain sizes?

I presume as big as possible on the drain to take the oil away - will need a scavenge pump, probably the 12V facet one, but i might have a go at a mechanical one drven from the timing plug hole on the right hand crankcase.

Had a look at PaulM's bike at Stoneleigh the other week, the oil feed looked roughly the same size as brakeline, which i think is -3?

The GT1544 i was looking to use is Journal turbo rather than Ball Bearing, would i still need to run a restrictor or is it only BB turbos that need less oil flow/pressure?

My other issue is still going to be lack of space at the front due to the sandwich plate oil cooler, I can get the standard oil cooled motor filter threaded part and do away with the oil cooler entirely but i'm guessing that will no oil cooling and a turbo it's going to run very hot and kill the oil very quickly.

I wondered if i could make an adapter plate to replace the sandwich cooler and use a remote oil cooler in front of the normal rad. If i make the adapter plate narrower than the cooler plate I can gain back around 30mm.

Also, anyone know of an alternative to the standard Suzuki spin on filter that is shorter, this might help gain a bit more back.

Anyway, progress on the subframe and tail unit

Cheers

Chris

[Gixer1460]

My own opinion is...... water is your primary coolant so loss of oil cooler whilst a concern isn't crucial. As the engine will be working harder, it would make more sense to increase water rad / system capacity! You could fit a remote oil to water cooler elsewhere later if required. With a plain bearing turbo, any oil pressure above 30 psi is ok providing the drain has capacity to drain it! I've used Dash 4 oil feed restricted and un-restricted on two different builds. Ideally you want the turbo higher than the filter - having to remove all that junk just to change a filter gets old very quickly!

[Screwriverracing]

You might be able to get a remote filter conversion to move the oil filter.

something like this

 

Cheers SRR

Edited May 18, 2016 by Screwriverracing

[Sheep]

You can always get one of those ^^^^ with bsp take-offs for pressure/temp gauges too

[slingy1157]

You can but suzuki use a unique m20x1 filter thread. I just so happen to have a sandwich plated with a cover made up with a m20x1 thread to suit with solid oil lines and a filter mount to move the filter under the shock. PM if intersted. Oh just noticed you dont have the filter thread anyway. The threaded hole on the block is some imperial size from memory as i made a new one to take an m20x1.5 super short filter for mine .

[El Gringo]

Thanks guys, have given it a bit more thought, i think i'll find a better radiator as a first port of call.

I was going to swap from the GSXR4 rad to a Bandit4 rad which is slightly shorter which would give better clearance for the headers but i really need more performance than less by the look of it.

At somepoint i'll look at a sandwich plate for a remote oil cooler, this would save me approx 30mm compared to the standard cooler. If i could convert to M20 x 1.5 i could also run a shorter filter - do you have any details of your super short filter Slingy?

The bonus of using the sandwich plate adapter means i could run the oil pressure switch from there and not have to faff trying to tap the end of the turbo feed banjo bolt and I could run oil temp from there too.

My original plan was to buy the oil filter stub from a B12 so i could run the filter on the front of the block - which I may still do in the short term as its about £6 + postage

I suppose the ideal would be to replicate that stub but with M20x1.5 on the filter end, use a standard sandwich plate off of eGay, and then run a shorter filter.

Thanks for all your help, i'm sure i'll be back with more daft questions shortly!

Cheers

Chris

[slingy1157]

Yeah, i went through endless filter catalogues comparing sizes and fitment and this is the shortest filter that i could find, but it is an M20x1.5 thread as stated. Its pretty lost in mine but can just see it haha.

 

[slingy1157]

I think the RMZ104 is about 55mm deep OA so its pretty short.

Heres a picture of my old remote set up i no longer need. Built to fit a 1052 motor, but would not work on the bandit 12 because the oil lines were in the way. Its still about 50mm deep i think. Filter looks low but was no lower than exhaust when it was on the bike. its a bit parallax errory lol. just an example of what can be done.

 

[El Gringo]

Crackin' thanks for the info Slingy. I assume you've had no issues with filtration?

I'm going to start with a standard filter straight on the block and do away with the cooler, but at a later date i'll use a s/w plate cooler take off and a short filter with the adapter.

 

[slingy1157]

Havnt used it much be honest but seems ok so far

[El Gringo]

Thanks boss, 

[El Gringo]

Hi All,

Things are progressing nicely, have made a start on the turbo stuff! I have the turbo and have made a start on the headers.

Turns out the oil cooler and filter aren't going to be an issue as the turbo sits well above them which is nice, so i can run a stock filter and the stock cooler, an have enough space to change to a sandwich plate take off and air/oil cooler at a later date with no hassle, which is nice.

I think i've sorted the oil feed and probably return but my next question is regarding the fuel pump etc

I was going to run the Malpassi FPR009 that everyone seems to use, but i'm a bit unsure on the pump.

I've been looking at the stock replacement Bosch 070 type pumps on egay, which are 3 Bar (44psi at 12V) and 130 litres per hour.

http://www.Eblag.co.uk/itm/161152185189?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Am i correct in thinking, that i need to maintain 3-5psi above boost pressure? So for example if i run 15 psi of boost i need a pump capable of 18-20psi?

My concern was whether the 44psi/3 Bar was too much, although the FPR is rated to 60psi from a bit of research, would that be ok?

Secondly on the tank flow/return, i presume the return needs to feed back at the top above the level of the fuel?

Apologies for all the questions, i think i'm getting my head round it now!

Cheers