Trying to work out what I have here.

[BoostedRooster712]

G'Day,

Wouldn't mind some help here from the experts with regards to what I have. I'm trying to do some research before it arrives so I can get working on the bike straight away.

Specs.

88 (V706) GSX1100F 1127cc motor, busa pistons at 1216cc. Has a lock up clutch which I believe was done by Dave Dunlop at Fast By Me. Lock up brand unknown unless he makes his own. Any further engine mods I have not been told about.

GT2871R turbo

Tial wastegate working on spring pressure only. (Look like MV-S (38mm) or MV-R model (44mm))

Tial Q BOV (50.5mm)

GSXR1000 throttle bodies, looks like they've been inverted to fit. Pics look like K3-K4 or K5-K6. 

60lb high impedance injectors

KMS FA23 ECU for fuelling and other related duties but not ignition.

Dyna 2000 with dyna coils for ignition. I know nothing about the ignition trigger set up yet. Will have to pull the ignition cover off when it arrives.

Looks like there's a fuel pump and a regulator under the seat, no details known.

 

Comments by builder, Sean at Big CC: It has been on Dyno at spring pressure only as issue with map sensor. Was to be future investigated & mapped. Currently set on 8-10 PSI with minor boost creep over 10K.

That future investigate and mapping part never happened as that's where the previous owner stalled on the project so I have to fix that when it arrives.

I understand Sean is a 3 man team and I didn't pay the bill so I don't expect any support from him which is fair enough. Unfortunatley the previous owner/builder was not big on tech/specs so I'm trying to work this all out from pictures.

The few things I am trying to work out are:

Looks like there is a 3 port boost controller hooked up. 

Can anyone identify the switch under the throttle bodies? I have not been able to identify it. Looks like it has G&D or GD on it and says push to lock and 0-4 bar written on it but need higher res pictures. I'm guessing this is connected to the boost controller to override the spring in the wastegate. I could be way off mark though so would love to hear your comments.

So, unfortauntely yes, I'm a bike turbo noob, I have played with forced induction before on 4 wheels but not 2. Jumped in at the deep end here but enjoying trying to work all this out and getting a plan happening for when it arrives.

I can understand that the map sensor not working properly is not taking readings from the plenum so whatever is set up here with the ECU and boost controller is why it is only working at spring pressure in the wastegate. If I don't understand please point out the errors in my guestimation.

If this was all working properly with the map sensor, then the ECU would detect the boost levels and adjust accordingly and also control the boost controller? 

Am I on the right track? If not, please point me in the right direction or riducule me or a bit of both.

[Arttu]

I'm not familiar with the KMS ECUs but the FA23 seems to be a very simple fuel only ECU so I assume it doesn't have anything to do with boost control. In that case there would be some separate boost control arrangement. The simplest option could be that the switch is directly controlling the solenoid valve and the valve just switches between low boost that is pressure going directly to the wastegate and high boost where pressure is routed through some bleed valve. Alternatively there can be some separate electronic boost controller controlling the solenoid valve and then the switch is used to change target boost of the controller.

So I think you need to dig down and see what's actually there and how everything is connected.

MAP sensor problems are unfortunately quite fundamental. The ECU uses the MAP sensor to measure the boost and based on that adjusts fueling. So if the MAP sensor doesn't read correctly the fueling will be off which is naturally very dangerous situation. So this definitely requires proper checking before running the engine under any real power.

[clivegto]

Give Big CC a ring they were very helpful when I spoke to them on the phone. 

[BoostedRooster712]

On 11/29/2022 at 6:08 PM, Arttu said:

I'm not familiar with the KMS ECUs but the FA23 seems to be a very simple fuel only ECU so I assume it doesn't have anything to do with boost control. In that case there would be some separate boost control arrangement. The simplest option could be that the switch is directly controlling the solenoid valve and the valve just switches between low boost that is pressure going directly to the wastegate and high boost where pressure is routed through some bleed valve. Alternatively there can be some separate electronic boost controller controlling the solenoid valve and then the switch is used to change target boost of the controller.

So I think you need to dig down and see what's actually there and how everything is connected.

MAP sensor problems are unfortunately quite fundamental. The ECU uses the MAP sensor to measure the boost and based on that adjusts fueling. So if the MAP sensor doesn't read correctly the fueling will be off which is naturally very dangerous situation. So this definitely requires proper checking before running the engine under any real power.

Thanks for your time Arttu, that makes perfect sense. 

I'll cross reference the wiring diagram for the FA23 with the actual bike when it arrives and see how it has been set up.

KMS sugested wiring.

I've had my eye on a microsquirt for a long while buit I'd like to see if I can get this working effectively.

This video helped explain a few things too with regards to boost controllers.

14 hours ago, clivegto said:

Give Big CC a ring they were very helpful when I spoke to them on the phone. 

Cheers, I'll give that a go when and if I get stuck, Sean didn't want to discuss it with me over email as it was not me who paid for the work which is very fair and at the time he hadn't been advised Dave had sold the bike to me. I sent my questions to Dave who had to forward them to Sean to answer and then back to me. Don't like taking up people's time when I've not paid them anything.

[Arttu]

8 hours ago, BoostedRooster712 said:

Thanks for your time Arttu, that makes perfect sense. 

I'll cross reference the wiring diagram for the FA23 with the actual bike when it arrives and see how it has been set up.

KMS sugested wiring.

I've had my eye on a microsquirt for a long while buit I'd like to see if I can get this working effectively.

That wiring diagram pretty much confirms that the FA23 is indeed a very basic ECU and most likely it has nothing to do with boost control on your bike.

It's always a though question what to keep and what redo when continuing someone else's project. And that's especially true with engine control electronics. While I'm sure that what you have there now can be made to work just fine I would be very tempted to just rip off everything and start from a clean sheet with some more capable ECU that can do everything. But that's because I'm an engine management geek and don't mind about tinkering with these things So I can very well understand that some people wouldn't want to touch that if it works already.

A Microsquirt is one good option for simple but capable ECU. Although there are some other similar ones on the market which might be even better depending on what you want. Just let me know if you need help with palnning.

[Arttu]

9 hours ago, BoostedRooster712 said:

This video helped explain a few things too with regards to boost controllers.

Seems to explain the basic concepts pretty well. Misses some minor details here and there and slightly simplifies some aspects but overall a good watch.

[Gixer1460]

56 minutes ago, Arttu said:

That wiring diagram pretty much confirms that the FA23 is indeed a very basic ECU and most likely it has nothing to do with boost control on your bike.

Without all the info it difficult to confirm but couldn't the AUX1 output be used as the 'boost switching source' ? Agreed that it is a very crude solution but also (i'm again guessing here) if that output is a grounding one, it could also be hooked up to the Dyna2000 orange wire to initiate boost retard - again a crude solution!

[Arttu]

1 hour ago, Gixer1460 said:

Without all the info it difficult to confirm but couldn't the AUX1 output be used as the 'boost switching source' ? Agreed that it is a very crude solution but also (i'm again guessing here) if that output is a grounding one, it could also be hooked up to the Dyna2000 orange wire to initiate boost retard - again a crude solution!

Spent few minutes by finding and checking the manual: https://en.kms.vankronenburg.nl/media/wysiwyg/downloads/Handleidingen/English/FA23_Fuel_Manual_V3.08.pdf

The AUX1 seems to be configurable on/off style output that can be triggered by one or two ECU parameters. So it could be used as a shift light or cooling fan control. Or as boost retard control for the Dyna as you said. But I don't see any sensible way to use it for boost control. That would require PWM-style output for the solenoid and control algorithm to regulate boost.

[Gixer1460]

Yes if variable boost required - I was thinking more along the two step type boost control ie. low on spring only, high switch control solenoid to bleed boost for high?

[Arttu]

32 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

Yes if variable boost required - I was thinking more along the two step type boost control ie. low on spring only, high switch control solenoid to bleed boost for high?

Yes, that's possible but why you would want to get the ECU involved to that? Meaning when and based on what parameter the ECU should switch between low and high boost?

[Gixer1460]

It (the ecu) just takes over the adjustible mechanical pressure switch role which was the oldskool way of having a selectable two stage boost. I don't say this is the best way but with a limited function ecu and doing it on a budget - its a way. Yes a PWM control of a solienoid gives better resolution against duty cycle but will require a different ecu - but maybe a Megaquirt can do it and is 'relatively' cheap AND can do ignition as well so could definately be advised as an upgrade.

[Arttu]

I'm afraid that you are having a blonde moment now (Or I'm misreading something) Usually you don't want to have boost level switched by boost pressure...

[Gixer1460]

Was it a 'blonde moment'? Surely all turbo control is based around boost? With a std wastegate having, say, a 8lb spring, 8lbs of boost will open the gate. If you want 10lbs, you either change the spring or use a bleed off to bleed off some of the boost from the spring diaphragm so its opening is at a higher boost. Ultimately boost pressure always controls boost - unless you use bottled air / gas pressure for really sophisicated control. If the ecu is monitoring intake air pressure, Aux5 could be set to activate a soli to either increase or decrease that pressure rather than having separate switch?

[Arttu]

Ok, let's take one step back. You have that 2 stage boost system, let's say 8lb on the gate spring and then 15lb with bleed valve, switching between those two by an electric solenoid. Now, when and why you want to switch between these low and high boost? I think typical answers are manual switching by the rider whenever more or less power is wanted or gear based switching to have less power on low gears and more on higher gears. But switching based on boost doesn't make any sense to me. Like switching to 15lb setting always when you see 5lb boost, what would be the point of that?

[Gixer1460]

Doesn't have to be solely on boost, could be rpm, could be gear etc. subject to an available input & suitable signal? Automation is maybe a good reason as I used to have ign. retard on a bar switch which I completely forgot once = 40deg advance + 10psi boost . . . . . . . silly me  And I originally only said 'it could be', not must be 

[Arttu]

Ah, ok. I thought you were talking about switching based on boost since you earlier mentioned replacing mechanical pressure switch by the ECU. Well, boost switching by other parameters could make a bit more sense. But with this ECU setup options are quite limited. Throttle position could make some sense, lower boost at part throttle and full boost at full throttle. But I think the result wouldn't be too good with 2 stage control. RPM, maybe, but still probably too rough to be useful. One option could be safety based on engine or air temp. So normal situation would be higher boost and if temp gets too high it would fall back to lower boost.

[BoostedRooster712]

On 12/2/2022 at 9:46 PM, Arttu said:

Ok, let's take one step back. You have that 2 stage boost system, let's say 8lb on the gate spring and then 15lb with bleed valve, switching between those two by an electric solenoid. Now, when and why you want to switch between these low and high boost? I think typical answers are manual switching by the rider whenever more or less power is wanted or gear based switching to have less power on low gears and more on higher gears. But switching based on boost doesn't make any sense to me. Like switching to 15lb setting always when you see 5lb boost, what would be the point of that?

Thanks for your input so far gentlemen. It has been an interesting read. I believe, without having the bike here that the above is how it is set up, with a switch.

I'm leaning toward removing the systems that is in place and installing a microsquirt. Our closest dealer in NZ appears to be very helpful. I have been chatting to him for a while, when I was looking at installing a turbo system on a B12 motor. 

He has provided me with the following information. 

That's a pretty slick setup

Not sure what the heat would be like coming off the turbo exhaust - but that's easily changed if need be

 

While the Microsquirt can be used as a FUEL-ONLY setup -  

Might as well do it all in one hit and use it to control the ignition too - 

 

Not sure what the DYNA setup is for ignition - but if it's a pretty basic 2D ignition curve with a simple boost retard  -  then might be worth ditching it

Or maybe just run the Microsquirt as FUEL ONLY to get the fuelling right and then once that side is sorted -  change it to control the ignition

 

As with all forced induction setups - its ignition timing which gives the power and the difference that 2' of timing can make on boost can be huge

 

If you can find out the triggersetup - then that would be the next step

Chances are it's something simple like the CBR's of the same error  either an 8-1 missing tooth,   12 -1 or   12-3 as on the CBR600/1000

And most likely using a Magnetic VR sensor

 

Either way - the Microsquirt won't have a problem with it

 

230hp at the wheels is pretty serious too

I've ridden a couple of turbo bikes - both making between 180-200hp ATW - and they were enough to scare me.

Mainly the rush of torque as the turbo comes on -    so not a bad idea having a large turbo (for a 1100cc engine) like the 2871 -  as won't be too snappy in the midrange

Boost should be relatively progressive  (in theory)

 

The 600cc injectors should be enough for around 250hp at the wheels

In theory they should flow over 400hp - but due to the high revving nature of the engine and the extended opening and closing time -  you always go bigger

So they made the right choice with those

 

The microsquirt can also control the boost solenoid as well

And can also do variable boost by rpm  vs throttle position -  so can tame it down if need be

 

We supply a 3 bar MAP sensor with our kits - so that's fine for up to 27psi

 

And of course if you do decide just to go with Fuel only - then you can use the Tacho output from the DYNA2000 - as the rpm input for the Microsquirt

I do have an additional question, when mapping this setup which as not been done I would have used a wideband sensor such as the Innovate LC-1 or the Dynojet autotune sensors which are both bosch sensors but both of those have been on NA bikes so do not apply in this case. I'm having trouble working out where I would put a sensor on this setup, the more research I do the more confused I get due to all the mixed opinions and results I am reading. This is the exhaust setup, I can't for the life of me think of a place to put it that will give accurate reading without extending the pipe and even then I'm getting mixed results when researching it. Maybe it is not possible but I'm sure the pros here will let me know.

 

[Gixer1460]

Just place it in the outlet pipe, 4 - 6" down from turbo! You may get a degree of oxygen dilution from the open end of the pipe being so close at idle but idle tuning doesn't make the engine unsafe - as gas speed increases with rpm the dilution effect goes away and accuracy can be relied on.

[Arttu]

As said above, placing the lambda sensor on the dump pipe, about 5-10cm away from the turbo should work ok. You may get some false lean readings at idle but at any higher rpms it should be fine.

Regarding the ignition setup with the Microsquirt. First you need a suitable trigger wheel, like described in the answer you have got. I can supply a 24-2 pattern wheel that fits on the oilcooled engines and works with the stock pick-up sensor. Secondly you need a coil driver module to drive the stock coils or active coils with integrated drivers. All this is pretty straightforward so I would add the ignition control straight away if you are going to use the Microsquirt.

[BoostedRooster712]

Thank you gentlemen, your knowledge and advice is priceless. The bike is only a few weeks away now. I'll shoot you a PM a bit later @Arttuto organise the trigger wheel. 

I've just sold my 750 M model a few hours ago so I'm going to jump on the microsquirt setup and get it on it's way. The bike sold in 10 minutes which I guess means I sold it a little too cheap buy you have to love a hassle free transaction.  

 

[BoostedRooster712]

Just ordered the following which will probably be here before the bike:

Microsquirt V3.0 ECU

ECU loom

GM Map sensor with connector

Map sensor line

GM air temp sensor

Unitek Tuning Cable

USB flash drive with Manual/Software

Engine temp sensor coming from Arttu, with the trigger wheel.

 

I'm trying to find an innovate wideband sensor without a gauge. I'd like the race technolgy dash2 that I'm putting on it to be the only instruments/dash without cluttering things up with extra gauges.

I'll grab the CAN adapter for the dash2 so it can hook up to the ECU, be good with the dash. 

I saw a reply in in another place but a guy called Arttu  that did not recomend the LC-2. No good?

Edited January 14, 2023 by BoostedRooster712
Spelling

[Arttu]

2 hours ago, BoostedRooster712 said:

I'm trying to find an innovate wideband sensor without a gauge. I'd like the race technolgy dash2 that I'm putting on it to be the only instruments/dash without cluttering things up with extra gauges.

I'll grab the CAN adapter for the dash2 so it can hook up to the ECU, be good with the dash. 

I saw a reply in in another place but a guy called Arrto  that did not recomend the LC-2. No good?

If you get a dash with CAN connection to the ECU then you would connect the wideband to the ECU and the ECU will send the info to the dash.

Like mentioned elsewhere based on what I have seen reliability of the LC-2 isn't good. Breaking sensors frequently, showing wrong values and all kind other problems. Seems to apply on some other current products from Innovate too... AEM X-series and Spartan2 from 14point7.com have been good and trouble free choices by this far.

[BoostedRooster712]

2 hours ago, Arttu said:

If you get a dash with CAN connection to the ECU then you would connect the wideband to the ECU and the ECU will send the info to the dash.

Like mentioned elsewhere based on what I have seen reliability of the LC-2 isn't good. Breaking sensors frequently, showing wrong values and all kind other problems. Seems to apply on some other current products from Innovate too... AEM X-series and Spartan2 from 14point7.com have been good and trouble free choices by this far.

Thanks Arttu. I appreciate the feedback and recommendation.

I'll get the Spartan2 with the Bosch LSU 4.9. 

I bought the Spartan2 from overseas from 14point7, locally the Spartan2 has has been doscontinued and now they only do the Spartan3.

CAN interface also ordered for the dash2.

https://www.race-technology.com/wiki/index.php/ECUType/MegasquirtCANInterface

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by BoostedRooster712

[BoostedRooster712]

Edited, apparently 24 hours until a credit card chargeback is all it take to get a slacker into action.

I thought I was being Mark Walkered all over again.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by BoostedRooster712

[BoostedRooster712]

Most of the parts have arrived, to stop duplication I will continue this in my build thread here.