Cam oiling issue… Again!

[TiZiK]

OK guys, I’m at a loss here. Put in another set of cams and rockers, close it up and check oil pressure while running. I had around 70 psi at idle, and around 100 psi with RPMs. Engine is dry blocked meaning the 2 galleries that feed the head through the studs are blocked off internally. I have a top and Oiler kit fed from the main oil Gallery on the right side with and oil line going from the right side to the left side. The turbo is also being fed from the right side gallery but I have a 1 mm restrictor.  Main circuit and cooling circuit are still independent of each other. Cooling circuit is untouched aside from braided lines. 

Bike was running extremely rich even though I pulled fuel out from idle so I suspected that the injectors were gummed up as I left fuel in there for a few months. Pulled injectors yesterday, clean them all up, reinstalled today, fire up bike and shortly there after the dreaded squeak came back.

Pulled the right side cover and connected and oil pressure gauge again and now I’m only seeing 40 psi.

Only thing I can think of at this point is the cam journal on the cylinder that had the damaged cams and rockers, showed some signs of scoring. It didn’t look very bad but in hindsight I should have plastic gauged.

I am completely chapped and stumped at the moment so I just put the tools down and walked away.

Open to insults and suggestions. Ha!

[Nik]

Have you connected the oil cooler in parallel with the cam lubrication?

Edited January 15, 2022 by Nik

[Gixer1460]

Not usual, but not unheard of, is debris getting trapped in the pressure relief valve in the sump causing it to stick open. Cold oil gives reasonable pressure but with hotter, more liquid oil, the pressure crashes! I don't think the sump will pull off in frame? so engine out and may be a good idea to check the bottom end shells at same time? Can't think of any other causes if cam feed is off main gallery?

[mikeyd]

Just wondering about the cylinder head, are they the original cam caps?

[TiZiK]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:26 PM, mikeyd said:

Just wondering about the cylinder head, are they the original cam caps?

Yes. Matching cam caps to head. 
 

I think my issue was volume as oppose to pressure. I was using -3 brake lines I had here and double banjos. That’s a lot of restriction to flow volume. Makes sense as I always seen good pressure which is what has been frustrating me. 
 

Anyhow, I’ve done away with the -3 lines and all banjo fittings. I’ve ordered -4 lines and full flow fittings. 
 

Coming from the main gallery it will go to a tee in between the throttle bodies. I have a straight fitting going to the tee that has a 1/8 NPT port for a pressure gauge. From the tee it will go to each side top end oiler via full flow 90s. 
 

Will update again once I get my fittings. Should be here this week

[TiZiK]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:03 AM, Gixer1460 said:

Not usual, but not unheard of, is debris getting trapped in the pressure relief valve in the sump causing it to stick open. Cold oil gives reasonable pressure but with hotter, more liquid oil, the pressure crashes! I don't think the sump will pull off in frame? so engine out and may be a good idea to check the bottom end shells at same time? Can't think of any other causes if cam feed is off main gallery?

I can pull sump easily. I have it off actually before this latest cam failure to clean the sediment from the last failure. All relief valves were pulled and cleaned in engine and sump cover. 

[Maggotbreath]

When ya dry blocked it what did you do with the cam feed oil jets and what did you to the head. Not to familiar with dry blocking but can you loose pressure back down the oil feed?

Original sump and PRVs. oil control plunger?

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Maggotbreath
spelig

[Gixer1460]

5 hours ago, Maggotbreath said:

When ya dry blocked it what did you do with the cam feed oil jets and what did you to the head. Not to familiar with dry blocking but can you loose pressure back down the oil feed?

The OP did say they were blocked internally - a grub screw in lieu of the jet is the usual method. Yes oil would 'leak' away from the cams via original holes and stud holes but once full they would be pressurised as normal. I do believe the dash 3 hose has a lot to answer for! Its tiny ID won't help - i'd rather use dash 5 or even 6 if PTFE and let the cam bearings form the restriction creating pressure?

[TiZiK]

6 hours ago, Maggotbreath said:

When ya dry blocked it what did you do with the cam feed oil jets and what did you to the head. Not to familiar with dry blocking but can you loose pressure back down the oil feed?

Original sump and PRVs. oil control plunger?

 

From what I remember, it’s the original sump. Still has the PRV as well. 
 

what does an original slabby sump look like?

[TiZiK]

38 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

The OP did say they were blocked internally - a grub screw in lieu of the jet is the usual method. Yes oil would 'leak' away from the cams via original holes and stud holes but once full they would be pressurised as normal. I do believe the dash 3 hose has a lot to answer for! Its tiny ID won't help - i'd rather use dash 5 or even 6 if PTFE and let the cam bearings form the restriction creating pressure?

I’ve received a few fittings and measured the id. The -4 are 5mm at the smallest point that I could measure. I believe the original jets that fed the head were only around 1 mm x 2 jets. 

I’ve left the squeaky cams in there for now. Hoping to hear a vast difference with the new lines before I install another set. I’ll at least get to watch the oil pressure that the head itself is actually seeing as well. 

[Maggotbreath]

When the crank case was opened up for the 1340 block didn't the cam feed oil gallery get cut into? 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Maggotbreath

[TiZiK]

14 minutes ago, Maggotbreath said:

When the crank case was opened up for the 1340 block didn't the cam feed oil gallery get cut into? 

Yes. Had it done by Hi Performance Machine in Burnaby. While they are an excellent machine shop, they weren’t familiar with the oil cooled engines so ended up cutting into the gallery. 
I drilled and tapped the gallery and used 12mm long grub screws with red loctite to block them. 

[Maggotbreath]

7 minutes ago, TiZiK said:

Yes. Had it done by Hi Performance Machine in Burnaby. While they are an excellent machine shop, they weren’t familiar with the oil cooled engines so ended up cutting into the gallery. 
I drilled and tapped the gallery and used 12mm long grub screws with red loctite to block them. 

So therefor won't your cam oil just pump out the opened up gallery?

[Maggotbreath]

Nevermind, just realized that APE cylinder block won't have the oil galley grove on the bottom side... carry on.

[TiZiK]

4 minutes ago, Maggotbreath said:

Nevermind, just realized that APE cylinder block won't have the oil galley grove on the bottom side... carry on.

I see what you’re getting at. This is the only pic I was able to dig up showing the bottom of the block. There is indeed a groove there. 
would the copper gasket not block it anyway?

Now you got me thinking if that’s possible

 

[TiZiK]

[Maggotbreath]

So there is a gallery.

[Maggotbreath]

Did you anneal the gasket and use a sealant on it?

[TiZiK]

1 minute ago, Maggotbreath said:

Did you anneal the gasket and use a sealant on it?

100% yes. Both sides

[Maggotbreath]

48 minutes ago, TiZiK said:

Yes. Had it done by Hi Performance Machine in Burnaby. While they are an excellent machine shop, they weren’t familiar with the oil cooled engines so ended up cutting into the gallery. 

So maybe that cut is dumping oil out.   Pull the cams and grubscrew the feed from the top..

[TiZiK]

38 minutes ago, Maggotbreath said:

So maybe that cut is dumping oil out.   Pull the cams and grubscrew the feed from the top..

That will be difficult. I have a spare head here that I pulled out to inspect. Can’t access from the top. I’d have to pull the head which I would hate to have to do right now. Lol

 

With that in mind, I could fill that port with epoxy from the outside through the hole where the top end oiler attaches. Might be worth trying. 
 

pic 3 is from the cam area looking down 

Pic 2 is through the end where the top end oiler bolts on. 
Pic 1 is from the underside looking up the stud hole. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by TiZiK

[Maggotbreath]

Looks like it's drilled from the bottom up and the top down, head off it is then. Unless I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

[TiZiK]

3 hours ago, Maggotbreath said:

Looks like it's drilled from the bottom up and the top down, head off it is then. Unless I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

Definitely drilled from the bottom up. In the top down pic, that’s not the gallery you’re seeing in the cam journal. That’s where the rocker shaft hole lines up. 
 

Im really not wanting to pull the head at this time. That’s a full on engine out. 
Im toying with the epoxy idea currently. 
 

When I do pull the head in the future (as I am planning for larger valves etc) I will most definitely address that gallery and block with a grub screw. 
 

It’s funny that I’ve never heard mention of this before. You’re the first to raise this point. 

[Maggotbreath]

Perhaps ya could test by filling  it with light oil? If it drains thats it, if not move on.

Or just mod the head oil supply like your planning and test the oil pressure with the larger lines and 90s.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Maggotbreath
spelig

[TiZiK]

Just now, Maggotbreath said:

Perhaps ya could test by filling  it with light oil? If it drains that it, if not move on.

Or just mod the head oil supply like your planning and test the oil pressure with the larger lines and 90s.

Good point. Will try that and see.