djayedot
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Posts posted by djayedot
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UPDATE:
I stared at these drawings for a solid 1-2 beers and have made a few observations (please correct me if I'm wrong here).
1- I believe my arrows for oil cooler flow path are actually backwards, hole with the restrictor orifice down it's bore will actually be cooler RETURN.
2- It is definitely important AF that however I do this, the PRV is UPSTREAM from the newly installed restrictor orifice (upstream in terms of oil pump discharge path). If not, a pump overload situation may occur at high RPM.
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Alright guys,
I keep going to my shop and forgetting to take pics of the new pan, so forget it, I just pulled some pics from some various Eblag listings to illustrate what I'm trying to do here.
First two photos are of a stock 1100W pan (this is exactly how my bike is set up right now).
RED Dot = oil pump discharge
BLUE Dot = oil flow to filter pad (oil filter inlet)
YELLOW = Bypass valve and oil pressure sensor locations (different between the two pans) Also denotes location of the STOCK oil flow restrictor orifice plug "X".
GREEN = Original 1100W external oil cooler flow path.
Second two photos are of 750W pans.
RED Dot = oil pump discharge
BLUE Dot = oil flow to filter pad (oil filter inlet)
YELLOW = Bypass valve and oil pressure sensor locations (different between the two pans)
PINK = Proposed installation area for OEM oil flow restrictor orifice plug
GREEN = Proposed oil cooler flow path (return line will be custom AN line to allow return in to side of pan)
Soooooooo with all of that said.... What do you guys think the chances of me blowing my shit up the second I hit the starter button is, if I decide to attempt this??? It seems simple enough, but the PRV's and oil pressure switches being in different locations has me a little worried, lol.
Thanks in advance.
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1 minute ago, Captain Chaos said:
Pics would help here.
Will do, I JUST brought the damn 750 pan back to my storage but I'll go get it soon and draw some diagrams over it, to make some of this nonsense clearer...
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Hi Guys, hope I don't ramble on too much here (if any of you have seen my other posts, you'll know it's a very real possibility)...
Been super busy relocating my shop lately, and haven't been able to pay much attention to my poor beloved watercooler... Nonetheless, I have (lazily) pressed on with some side quests in the background. One of which is to get my favorite exhaust system back on to the bike (I had to shelf my preferred exhaust during the 1100 swap due to time constraints. Ended up going with a garden variety Yosh 4-1 1100W header with a BOGUS POS SC Project silencer for the remainder of that season.) That 4-1 header has now cracked pretty bad at the collector after a light season of use, and I'd rather not repair it.
The "preferred" exhaust in question is a (somewhat uncommon) ti/cf WINGS exhaust (manufactured in New Zealand, IIRC) originally intended for a KTM 1190 Adventure bike. I acquired this silencer via my old job years ago, and I like the way that it sounds ALOT. I built the setup back when the bike was still a 600 with a Yosh 4-2-1, and fabbed up a pretty nice Cerakoted midpipe for it (at the expense of my period-correct Yoshimura piece which I probably shouldn't have cannibalized, in retrospect.)
I still have the headers, midpipe, silencer, and bracket. Would love to just throw it on but of course, there is the pressing issue of 600/750 vs. 1100 oil pan... (1100 has a mostly centered sump while 600/750 is smushed off to one side).
I got a little trigger happy the other night and ordered a 750W oil pan, pickup tube, and gasket, thinking that I had the whole scheme figured out. Guess I had a few too many beers, because I overlooked the whole oil cooler port issue... Oops.
I've been studying the two pans side by side for a minute and have come to a few conclusions... One- in an 1100W application both sides of the cooler are fed by the exact same oil pump output gallery??? And Two- the only thing that induces pressure differential/flow across the cooler is the little orifice plug which is inserted in to the 1100 pans only??? (Looks like a 1/8" NPT pipe plug with a hole drilled in it, Suzuki part number is: 11532-46E00).
With all of that said, here comes my real question: can I remove the front plug in the 600/750 pan, tap the bore (further back, past the first vertical hole, just as it is in 1100 applications) for the oil jet in question, and run my OEM 1100W external oil cooler? (The return port would be via AN line back in to the location of the SIDE plug in the 600/750 oil pan).
It makes sense in my head, but I've been wrong plenty of times before... I guess I'm a little gun-shy about this because 1- it's literally the most important fluid system in the entire bike, and 2- the oil pressure sending unit is in a different location vs. 1100W equivalents. I've thought about it a little, and I believe the oil pressure warning light will still function as intended, only difference being if there is an abnormal restriction in my external cooler the light may not trigger if there is another failure further down the line???
Am I tripping balls or on the right track here?
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I always wondered why FCR engineers decided to omit the mixture holes in the emulsion tubes (also always wondered WHYYY the hell there's only bearings in 3 out of the 4 slide wheels). Were any major jetting adjustments required to make these run right?
Also, as a side note since I'm considering upgrading carbs soon- would you happen to know if anyone's figured out a decent way to run proper filters over FCR's with the velocity stacks still intact? Maybe some kind of base plate behind the stacks for filter mounting?
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wow dude this build is sick!! can't believe how well that gsx1100 headlight works with the rest of your setup!
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Also, hi fellas I'm back from a little hiatus and there is some progress! A very kind gentleman on this forum (who coincidentally lives ten minutes from my shop) sold me a beautiful 94-95 750W braced swingarm!!! That checks ONE rare item off my list at least, leaving just a 40mm BST rack and that sexy ass SBM cylinder block to go...
I also got my 5spd trans back from the machine shop, they said it cleaned up well. I believe they had to do a little work to 1st and 2nd, all other gears looked good. I mated the cases a couple nights ago and tossed the motor in the frame, will try to finish up the install tomorrow evening.
The swingarm swap will have to wait a little bit (I have an S4, a Cummins, and my trusty Ford Ranger all in a billion pieces that desperately need my attention first) but fairly soon it will be going in. While I'm ahead, I want to get an idea of what I'll need. I did some reading and it looks like the pivot shaft is an easy solution, and brakes/wheel axle/etc all swap over no problem. I see the chain buffer is a bit different and will pick up a new OEM one if I can manage to source it. But my current questions lie within the linkage- I understand that the dogbones are of a different design (I have them), but can I use my 600W "cushion lever" and shock? I was in a rush and took a quick look at the microfiche and it looked like the linkage was the same between models, but upon closer inspection it looks like I misinterpreted the fitment data...
I like my cushion lever, it's nice and clean, and has all new bearings and seals. And I DO NOTTT want to part with my shock. I have no idea who set it up, nor what specifications it was set up to, but I am in love with the feel of it and very confident on the bike thanks to it. I would hate to have to go to a 94-95 750W shock and go back and forth with a suspension guy to get it set up even close to this old one.
Anybody got any pointers?
-Austin
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On 5/28/2022 at 8:09 PM, wombat258 said:
Very rare. I have one of the 1298cc SBM blocks drilled for full watercooling . . . 83mm pistons! Allows for a lot of valve area.
Hey Wombat, how hot does your bike run with that kit? What's your CR? Just trying to get an idea of what's ahead of me lol.
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Not sure if this info is of any value to you but I did 1100W Tokico 6 pot's on my 93 600W and the improvement was absurd. Although, I can't say for sure how much of that improvement was from the calipers themselves because at the same time I did fresh EBC full metallics, -3 AN lines, fresh (to me) low mileage OEM rotors (round hole style instead of slotted, not even sure what they were originally off of at this point), and a newer K5ish GSXR1K radial Nissin master cylinder which I rebuilt with OEM kit before install. Honestly, feels better braked to me than many newer Brembo machines...
If nothing else, we can say 600W/750W 4pot's should slap right on, but why is it you want to downgrade to the OEM Nissin 4pot's?
PS: For those saying that the 6pot's don't feel as nice as the 4's- when you did your conversion did you run the math on caliper piston area vs master cylinder bore and adjust accordingly? Because I would imagine that if I retained my original small bore master it would indeed be quite terrible.
-Austin
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Ah yes good idea, thank you for the specs let me give my set a look!
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Man you know what, I'm really starting to think I have a 96-97 SRAD trans here... Did some more digging and it looks like 96-97 is NEARLY identical to the W transmissions, then 98+ they went to an obviously different style input shaft and one of the bearings has a half-moon clip slot located in the middle. This box looks weak AF I'm about to just send my 5spd out for undercutting, lmao
Do we have any SRAD experts here that could lend some info?
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Just took some quick measurements and my 1st gear window is about 3.85mm deep in the cut, and 3.55mm deep outside of the cut. 1100W is like 7.15mm uncut (unfair comparison I know).
But, that's CRAAAZY
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12 hours ago, Joseph said:
Looks like your cog has had some machine work on it because this is what the one i've got looks like :
Now see, that looks normal to me. UGH... So either my set has already been undercut (and clearly needs it again because it looks WAY torn up, which is probably not possible as there isnt much material left at all), or is some other bogus gear set with super weak looking engagement points... I can see why they would cut the windows deeper, but even then, without those cuts it seems more shallow than what it should be. The hell is going on here lol
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On 4/20/2022 at 10:33 AM, Joseph said:
It slots in ok but indeed i do also note a 10mm shorter shaft on the clutch side.
Other than that everything matches up so far
Good deal man, at a glance it definitely appears the same as what I've got. Did you notice quite shallow engagement points as well?
-Austin
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On 4/18/2022 at 5:09 PM, Joseph said:
I have a W gearbox with hollow shaft arriving this week, i'll be able to supply comparison material
Awesome bro thank you!! I fitted my original clutch hub to the new input shaft just for shats and the -10mm shaft length sounds right about spot on. I *nearly* could get away with a thinner nut, but it really leaves no room for a washer, and given the sketchy nature of the interrupted-cut threads over the splines, not worth attempting.
-Austin
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On 4/15/2022 at 5:53 PM, wombat258 said:
My bad. I actually made a 6 spring conversion for my 1100W engines a while ago before I went to a lockup.
The 1052 is a 4 spring, I bought new parts from Suzuki, as follows:
1 Clutch inner hub 21410-06B02 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
2 Pressure disc 21462-06B00 1 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
3 Coil springs 4 off - Barnett HD
4 Spring spacers 09180-06174 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
5 Washers 09160-06020 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & J
6 Bolts 01107-06307 4 off GSXR1100 G,H & JThanks man. Based on some reading, I think the 4 spring unit (with stiff springs and good quality kevlar plates) will be enough for my needs, at least until that SBM bigbore kit shows up...
At the moment though, we may have a bigger problem. I *may* be an imbecile... Or, maybe the seller I purchased this trans from is an imbecile, we shall find out in a second:
Long story short, idk WTF I purchased here... It was advertised as a 93-95 750W trans in the title, but after getting sketched out and performing a closer inspection of the description they actually claim it was pulled from a 1996 750 (UH OH, please be a typo). This *would* explain the mysterious hollow input shaft and pushrod hole.
But here's the kicker.... It drops right in to my cases and everything meshes and lines up as it should??? Even the half-moon clips and bearing locating pins/oil passages! Input and output shaft splines, diameters all appear to be the same as well... From my understanding, people have tried SRAD transes in the past and they aren't even close to fitting, right? (I did look up some pics of SRAD transes and the half moon clip slots seem to be located centrally in the outer bearing race, which mine are most definitely not).
Here's what I'm concerned about (maybe this is normal and I'm just bugging over here, haven't had a close look at a 600W/750W trans in a while): The windows/dogs are REALLY shallow compared to what I was expecting. Yes, I know the gears must be shallower for six of them to fit in these cases but like damn, really? (See pics.) A DR350S has deeper engagement points than this...
Second thing- included with the trans was the telltale countershaft sprocket washer/reluctor wheel for the output shaft speed sensor (see pic). Smells like SRAD to me...
Anybody want to offer some input on WTF I bought here??? I'm a bit confused and concerned, to say the least.
-Austin
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On 4/14/2022 at 6:40 AM, wombat258 said:
Yes. It is also a common modification to use 6 spring plate on an 1100W, except you need to make a 10mm spacer for under the hub nut to allow for the longer 1100W shaft. You may need a longer pushrod, or add an 11mm bearing as a spacer.
Damn they have a 6 spring joint available?! What motors did they come in? Not going to lie, in the back of my head I was thinking 4 springs was a little light for an 1100cc bike (I mean, even dirtbikes and ATV's are usually 5-8 springs, albeit with softer spring rates...)
I actually just ordered the outer plate (4 spring) and EBC HD spring kit, I thought I had an inner hub on the hook but it looks like the seller can't locate it now so I may be beat there. I may have screwed up though... Seems to me like these parts are from an 1127 motor (1988 Kat). But they appear identical to the 1052 coil spring parts (which are harder to find). Suzuki microfiche is a bit muddy but I believe theyre the same? From what I understand the later 1127 just went to a diaphragm sprung system correct? (i.e. So long as the hub is a 4 coil unit I'm good, right?)
-Austin
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12 hours ago, wombat258 said:
Yes. I have done this conversion. The star of the 1100W will come out with a suitable drift. I preferred to use the star to maintain the oil flow, and discounted using a bronze bush. 750W shaft is 10mm shorter than the 1100W shaft.
You can only use the 1100W hub by counterboring enough to expose the shaft threads, and making a special stepped nut. Do not machine the splines at the back of the hub, as it will foul the basket springs! I have one of those hubs for a sidecar race engine floating around here somewhere. The 1052 hub is neater, and the springs are easier to tune for higher torque outputs.
Sold one of these modified 750W gearboxes a few years ago. The buyer insisted it would fit in an SRAD, I said NO . . . I noticed it came back onto FB marketplace shortly afterwards
Alright, you've got me sold on this 1052 idea... I was never a fan of diaphragm sprung clutches anyways (brings me awful harley flashbacks... yuck). So just to make sure I'm getting this right: 86-88 GSXR1100 inner clutch hub, outer pressure plate, springs, and hardware for end of shaft and springs? And it will all line up correctly with my 1100W clutch basket and plate set without machine work? Even with the shorter 6spd shaft?
-Austin
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23 hours ago, Joseph said:
1052 GSXR was 86-88
1127 GSXR was 89-92
But the 1100F was 1127, from 87 to 94
Go figure
Back on the 6 speed box topic, is the bore of this WC shaft, the same as the 1100 5 speed ?
Perfect, thanks man. Hopefully I can find what I need, looks like I only have 1 model over the course of 3 years to work with haha.
15 hours ago, beardo said:Not to go off topic, but was this the same Superbike Mike that was down in Oakland Park, FLA?
Yes that's correct. Believe he's been closed for quite a while now.
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I don't recall exactly what coils I used when I did my swap, may have been H onda or ZX9R, but 99% most likely the same ones you did... Probably one of the best bang-for-the-buck upgrades for these WC bikes. Admittedly, I had an ignition issue at the time when I made the swap, but I SWEAR it ran noticeably crisper and happier afterwards!!
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As soon I saw this thread I went off on a little tangent about these things.. WOW what an interesting bike!
Definitely different motor architecture compared to any other common US-market Suzukis. And variable valve timing in 1991?! You gotta be kidding me lmao
An employee of mine just recently purchased his first bike. I recommended he buy a GS500F (and he did) but damn, after learning about these I kind of wish I sent him on the hunt for one!!!
-Austin
PS: I was aware of the GSXR400 however I guess I just assumed that it was a super sleeved-down version of the 600, lol.
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Also as a sidenote- I've done some more daydreaming/dicking around whilst waiting for these parts to arrive, and I've further developed my gameplan...
I've taken some critical measurements (most importantly- the dimension from rear friction surface of original inner hub to case. Actually, I used the backside of the LH output shaft bearing as my reference point) which I plan to maintain no matter what combination of parts I run... I have a ROUGH measurement of the 750W overall shaft length from the seller- it seems to be about 6mm shorter than the 1100W part (but let's assume anywhere from 4-8mm). I figure so long as I can get the inner hub fully seated on the splines in it's proper location, I could use a thin bendy splined lockwasher from another model Suzuki instead of the thick convex washer + deformed edge locknut that the 1100W originally came with in order to save some thread height...
As far as the clutch pushrod is concerned, I looked at the long one and it looks super easy to disassemble, shorten, and reassemble. No biggie. I also have another 1100W here at my shop that I can use to roughly gauge proper pushrod protrusion (externally) for the sake of the slave cylinder being happy. But that centering insert inside of the shaft looks to me like one of those dreaded parts that can be installed easily, but NEVER come out. Or at least never come out intact... So, worst case scenario I'm banking on machining a sintered bronze sleeve to replace that with in the new shaft. Hopefully it ends up being a nice pressed fit and doesn't walk...
From you guy's perspective- any other important points that I'm overlooking here???
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2 hours ago, Joseph said:
Whats with the already hollow 750 shaft ? Any specific year these were fitted ?
Edit :
looks like 24121-17E01 is solid and 24120-17E20 is hollow
Based on my limited reading, early 750W were fitted with solid and at some point they switched over to hollow, presumably to cut down on weight/rotational mass. However, what's really boggling my mind at the moment is WHY does this *6spd* "750W" box that I have just purchased not only have that hollow shaft, but also the input shaft bearing and LH side case seal with the clutch release pushrod hole in it??? WTF bike could that even be from???
-Austin
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11 hours ago, wombat258 said:
Use a 1052 clutch hub, pressure plate and springs with the 750W input shaft and the 1100W basket, plates etc. You will have to remove the plug from the end of the hollow 750 shaft, and replace it with a support spider from a 1100W donor shaft. Easy hydraulic conversion. Will it last? Maybe if you do not flog it. Necessary? The 1100 engine has lots of torque, so no real necessity for a close range gearbox. And, no need for the Factory Pro star, just transfer ALL the 750 gearbox bits including drum, forks, selector shaft etc.
Thank you for this. In the back of my mind, I've always figured there were some parts that carried over from the O/C bikes (due to obvious external similarities to our WC bikes) however at least in my experience, it is rare to find a p/n that crosses over, or is at least useful, from said bikes. I am grateful that Suzuki is a chill ass manufacturer who doesn't change things (i.e. shaft diameters, spline counts, etc) that don't need changing over the years. I will definitely keep this inner hub and pressure plate on the backburner as an emergency "plan B" option. But for now, I'm going to try to bore some splines out of the back of my inner clutch hub (not too much) so that it will fully seat on the input shaft, as I love any excuse to run my new lathe which I rarely get to use, lmao.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the year split between 1052 and 1127 oil cooled engines? I don't know as much about these guys as I should...
-Austin
7/11 Oil Pan Debacle
in Water Cooled, V-Twins, Singles and 2-strokes
Posted · Edited by djayedot
Thanks for the reply bro. Yes header style differences are definitely (well at least in my opinion) why they made these pans different (also, they probably wanted to save money by running a pancake style heat exchanger on the lower-heat models).
Now, here's hoping the 750 headers are tall enough to work on my wonky ass setup... How much taller is the 1100W deck height compared to a 750??? I'm worried tops of primaries may be awfully close to bottom of oil pan...