Starter clutch

[bix1100]

I am having a problem with my GS1100ed.  The starter clutch went bad.  The symptom was the common one.  The starter and starter clutch gears were whirring but the engine was not catching.  I bought the clutch set as shown in Suzuki's parts fische.  That included the starter sprocket, the rollers, springs and spring caps, but it didn't fix the problem.  The starter and the other gears involved are meshing and spinning well.  The crankshaft spins.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Blubber]

So basically you replaced the starter gear, the bike turns over but won't fire or is it turning over very slowly?

- Can you point out what you replaced of the attached diagram?

[CockneyRick]

Did you lap the starter clutch back on the crank? Sounds like it's spinning on the end  

[wraith]

You say the crankshaft spins.

Dose this mean you're saying the engine is turning over?

Parts replaced, in the diagram above did you replace number 4 ll ? If not is the any bumps on the outside of it, as the springs can and do punch through or start to and then make them less affective.

[Swiss Toni]

Might pay you to leave the cover off temporarily, turn the motor over, and see what’s not right? 

[Jonny]

I have a problem where the M16 bolt on the starter clutch is constantly breaking loose. Sounds like it could be similar - although in my case, when this happens, the engine doesn't turn.

[Gixer1460]

8 minutes ago, Jonny said:

I have a problem where the M16 bolt on the starter clutch is constantly breaking loose. Sounds like it could be similar - although in my case, when this happens, the engine doesn't turn.

My 'M' used to do that when first built - a piss poor battery would allow the crank to bang off the limited compression / firing stroke and rotate backwards that cracked off the nut. I found some 'locking grease' that had either diamond or carborundum dust in it, once tightened its never come loose again! I also upped the battery capacity somewhat - so what fixed it, I can't tell!

[Jonny]

5 minutes ago, Gixer1460 said:

My 'M' used to do that when first built - a piss poor battery would allow the crank to bang off the limited compression / firing stroke and rotate backwards that cracked off the nut. I found some 'locking grease' that had either diamond or carborundum dust in it, once tightened its never come loose again! I also upped the battery capacity somewhat - so what fixed it, I can't tell!

Good to know. It's broken my Loctite red twice, and I don't want ot over-torque it. I was going to try 2 half-nuts on the with the outer one working as a lock nut.

[bix1100]

 

Thanks for all the replys.  I replaced number 4 as shown on the parts fish.   This included the started gear, the 3 rollers eith their springs and spring caps.   I gave  the clutch  a good tap on the end of the crankshaft and it seems to be  seated properly.  I pulled a plug and felt air coming out of the cylinder, so I know the engine is turning over.  There is spark.  One thing that is not right is, when I put a wrench on rhe rotor/crankshaft nut, I can turn the engine both ways.  I believe I will give the rotor another tap and see if that makes a difference.  There is a very good video online] replacing the starter clutch on a Suzuki GS1000, which is the same on a GS1100.  I have used this as my guide.  Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Swiss Toni]

Try a smear of Engineers Blue on the taper. That’ll show you what the contact area is. 

[Captain Chaos]

1 hour ago, bix1100 said:

One thing that is not right is, when I put a wrench on rhe rotor/crankshaft nut, I can turn the engine both ways.  

 When you turn the engine backwards (counterclockwise when turning the right/ignition side of the crankshaft) you should clearly hear the starter motor turning as well. 

[coombehouse]

Tapping it with a hammer won't fix it. The flywheel is probably spinning on the taper & needs lapping as has already been said.

[wraith]

If it's tight enough to turn the engine over (as you say you can feel air coming out) or is this by turning it over by the ATU by hand?

 

[bix1100]

I've got the cover off and when the starter button is pushed the starter spins and the other gears do as well.  I can see the end of the crankshaft turn with the rotor, so the rotor must not be spinning on the shaft.  I can't turn the rotor either way with my hand, but only with a wrench on the crankshaft nut.

Is it possible that the cutouts in the rotor that hold the rollers have been damaged so that the side which should stop the engine from turning backward once the engine fires does not do that.  I don't know what to think.

[coombehouse]

50 minutes ago, bix1100 said:

I've got the cover off and when the starter button is pushed the starter spins and the other gears do as well.  I can see the end of the crankshaft turn with the rotor, so the rotor must not be spinning on the shaft.  I can't turn the rotor either way with my hand, but only with a wrench on the crankshaft nut.

Is it possible that the cutouts in the rotor that hold the rollers have been damaged so that the side which should stop the engine from turning backward once the engine fires does not do that.  I don't know what to think.

The rotor will always turn either way as it is permanently fixed to the crank & held by the large nut. The gear behind the rotor should freewheel clockwise & engage the clutch to turn the engine anticlockwise.

[Gixer1460]

14 hours ago, bix1100 said:

IIs it possible that the cutouts in the rotor that hold the rollers have been damaged so that the side which should stop the engine from turning backward once the engine fires does not do that.  I don't know what to think.

I think you misunderstand how the thing functions? Nothing is in there to stop 'the engine turning backwards' The rollers are held off the starter ring gear by their springs, when the gear is driven by the starter motor the rollers lock to the gear turning the engine. Once its running they disengage as the crank rotation inertia is greater and holds the rollers back off the gear and against their springs. They are simple devices and either work or don't! I've seen them beaten to hell and still work. And I fail to see what the problem is - the starter works, the starter clutch works and the crankshaft spins - so what is the problem?

[Captain Chaos]

We've read three descriptions of the  problem but it's still not clear what the problem is, or if there even is one at all. 
Please make a video of the situation and post it here. 

[bix1100]

The problem is, the bike won't start.  I have no doubt that the started clutch was bad,  and Gixer1460, you were right.  I didn't have a full understanding of how the clutch worked.  My mistake was thinking that the clutch was the only reason the bike wouldn't start.   I thought the failure of the bike to start after I had done the repair had to be something wrong with the repair.  I am comfortable now that I did  the repair correctly, so there must be something else at play here.  The bike has spark, but it really doesn't look all that healthy, and the sparkplugs were dry after attempting to start the bike several times.  Maybe the problem now is in these 2 areas 

I appreciate all the help.  I'll be back with a successful outcome or some more questions.

Thanks

Thanks for all the replys.  I replaced number 4 as shown on the parts fish.   This included the started gear, the 3 rollers eith their springs and spring caps.   I gave  the clutch  a good tap on the end of the crankshaft and it seems to be  seated properly.  I pulled a plug and felt air coming out of the cylinder, so I know the engine is turning over.  There is spark.  One thing that is not right is, when I put a wrench on rhe rotor/crankshaft nut, I can turn the engine both ways.  I believe I will give the rotor another tap and see if that makes a difference.  There is a very good video online] replacing the starter clutch on a Suzuki GS1000, which is the same on a GS1100.  I have used this as my guide.  Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

[no class]

46 minutes ago, bix1100 said:

 One thing that is not right is, when I put a wrench on rhe rotor/crankshaft nut, I can turn the engine both ways.  I believe I will give the rotor another tap and see if that makes a difference.  

it won’t make fuck all difference.....what are you expecting ?  you can rotate the motor in both directions regardless .  when you hit the starter button does the motor turn over ? if yes..... leave it be .

[bix1100]

As I said in my previous post.  I didn't fully understand the way a starter clutch worked.  One thing being, that yes , you can turn the engine both ways by hand, but this is not a factor in the function of the starter clutch.  I now know that the repair on the starter clutch is good  and the non start issue is due to another problem.

[Gixer1460]

Back to basics then - spark and fuel! A poor spark outside the cylinder will almost certainly be non existent inside under compression! New plugs all round is a good start, check gaps including the rotor / ign. pick-ups as that will give poor spark performance. Once you have good, fat blue sparks move on to carbs - & likely a world of pain and frustration!

[wraith]

As above, back to the basic and answer there's questions 

1. Was the bike running before you got your hammer?

2. Poor spark, fit new plugs BUT when you have been trying to start the bike, when you remove the plugs are they wet?

3. How old is the fuel?

4. When you say you can turn the engine over by hand, is this with the plugs in or out?

5. What is the compression reading ?

You can have compression but if it's to low the engine may not run.

More helpful questions when you have answered there's so we have a base line of what's going on otherwise we are all just pissing in the wind  and I don't like wet boots 

[wraith]

Ps, STOP hitting things with the hammer, it's not good for them 

[ashley]

Good day guys 

I have a problem where all of starter gears are spinning when powered up but the rotor and crankshaft isn't turning at all. It's as if the rollers are not grabbing onto the starter clutch gear. Any advice on this matter? 

[coombehouse]

This is very old thread. The answer to your problem is in here though, you need to rebuild or replace your starter clutch & ensure the flywheel & taper engage completely & securely.